| Sep 24 @ 11:49 PM |
The Sacrifice of Reason by Sam Harris
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iam01
Posts: 6,265
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Humanity has had a long fascination with blood sacrifice. In fact, it has been by no means uncommon for a child to be born into this world only to be patiently and lovingly reared by religious maniacs who believe that the best way to keep the sun on its course or to ensure a rich harvest is to lead him by tender hand into a field or to a mountaintop and bury, butcher, or burn him alive as offering to an invisible (and almost certainly fictional) God.
In many ancient cultures whenever a nobleman died, other men and women allowed themselves to be buried alive so as to serve as his retainers in the next world. In ancient Rome, children were sometimes slaughtered so that the future could be read in their entrails. The Dyak women of Borneo would not even look at a suitor unless he came bearing a net full of human heads as a love offering. Some Fijian prodigy devised a powerful sacrament called “Vakatoga” which required that a victim’s limbs be cut off and eaten while he watched. Among the Iroquois, captives from other tribes were often permitted to live for many years, and even to marry, all the while being doomed to be flayed alive as an oblation to the God of War; whatever children they produced while in captivity were disposed of in the same ritual. African tribes too numerous to name have a long history of murdering people to send as couriers in a one-way dialogue with their ancestors or to convert their body parts into magical charms. Ritual murders of this sort continue in many African societies to this day.
It is essential to realize that such impossibly stupid misuses of human life have always been explicitly religious. They are the product of what certain human beings think they know about invisible gods and goddesses, and of what they manifestly do not know about biology, meteorology, medicine, physics, and a dozen other specific sciences that have more than a little to say about the events in the world that concern them.
And it is astride this contemptible history of religious atrocity and scientific ignorance that Christianity now stands as an absurdly unselfconscious apotheosis. As John the Baptist is rumored to have said upon seeing Jesus for the first time, “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world” (John 1:29). For most Christians, this bizarre opinion still stands, and it remains the core of their faith. Christianity amounts to the claim that we must love and be loved by a God who approves of the scapegoating, torture, and murder of one man—his son, incidentally—in compensation for the misbehavior and thought-crimes of all others.
Let the good news go forth: we live in a cosmos, the vastness of which we can scarcely even indicate in our thoughts, on a planet teeming with creatures we have only begun to understand, but the whole project was actually brought to a glorious fulfillment over twenty centuries ago, after one species of primate (our own) climbed down out of the trees, invented agriculture and iron tools, glimpsed (as through a glass, darkly) the possibility of keeping its excrement out of its food, and then singled out one among its number to be viciously flogged and nailed to a cross.
The notion that Jesus Christ died for our sins and that his death constitutes a successful propitiation of a “loving” God is a direct and undisguised inheritance of the scapegoating barbarism that has plagued bewildered people throughout history. Viewed in a modern context, it is an idea at once so depraved and fantastical that it is hard to know where to begin to criticize it. Add to the abject mythology surrounding one man’s death by torture—Christ’s passion—the symbolic cannibalism of the Eucharist. Did I say “symbolic”? Sorry, according to the Vatican it is most assuredly not symbolic. In fact, the opinion of the Council of Trent still stands:
I likewise profess that in the Mass a true, proper and propitiatory sacrifice is offered to God on behalf of the living and the dead, and that the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ is truly, really, and substantially present in the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist, and that there is a change of the whole substance of the bread into the body, and of the whole substance of the wine into blood; and this change the Catholic Church calls transubstantiation. I also profess that the whole and entire Christ and a true sacrament is received under each separate species.
Of course, Catholics have done some very strenuous and unconvincing theology in this area, in an effort to make sense of how they can really eat the body of Jesus, not mere crackers enrobed in metaphor, and really drink his blood without, in fact, being a cult of crazy cannibals. Suffice it to say, however, that a world view in which “propitiatory sacrifices on behalf of the living and the dead” figure prominently is rather difficult to defend in the year 2007. But this has not stopped otherwise intelligent and well-intentioned people from defending it.
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| Sep 24 @ 11:50 PM |
The Sacrifice of Reason by Sam Harris |
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iam01
Posts: 6,265
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And now we learn that even Mother Teresa, the most celebrated exponent of this dogmatism in a century, had her doubts about the whole story—the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the existence of heaven, and even the existence of God:
Lord, my God, who am I that You should forsake me? The Child of your Love — and now become as the most hated one — the one — You have thrown away as unwanted — unloved. I call, I cling, I want — and there is no One to answer — no One on Whom I can cling — no, No One. — Alone ... Where is my Faith — even deep down right in there is nothing, but emptiness & darkness — My God — how painful is this unknown pain — I have no Faith — I dare not utter the words & thoughts that crowd in my heart — & make me suffer untold agony.
So many unanswered questions live within me afraid to uncover them — because of the blasphemy — If there be God — please forgive me — When I try to raise my thoughts to Heaven — there is such convicting emptiness that those very thoughts return like sharp knives & hurt my very soul. — I am told God loves me — and yet the reality of darkness & coldness & emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul. Did I make a mistake in surrendering blindly to the Call of the Sacred Heart?
— addressed to Jesus, at the suggestion of a confessor, undated
Teresa’s recently published letters reveal a mind riven by doubt (as it should have been). They also reveal a woman who was surely suffering from run-of-the-mill depression, though even secular commentators have begun to politely dress this fact in the colors of the saints and martyrs. Teresa’s response to her own bewilderment and hypocrisy (her term) reveals just how like quicksand religious faith can be. Her doubts about God’s existence were interpreted by her confessor as a sign that she was sharing Christ’s torment upon the cross; this exaltation of her wavering faith allowed Teresa “to love the darkness” she experienced in God’s apparent absence. Such is the genius of the unfalsifiable. We can see the same principle at work among her fellow Catholics: Teresa’s doubts have only enhanced her stature in the eyes of the Church, having been interpreted as a further evidence of God’s grace.
Ask yourself, when even the doubts of experts are thought to confirm a doctrine, what could possibly disconfirm it?
Source:
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/sam_harris/2007/08/the_sacrifice_of_reason.html
[Edited on 9/25/2009 12:27 AM]
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| Sep 25 @ 2:10 AM |
The Sacrifice of Reason by Sam Harris
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iam01
Posts: 6,265
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Considering the responses made in another thread by folks who sound like patients in a mental ward I decided to post a Sam Harris commentary that complements that thread. Sam's commentary addresses the human sacrifice issue and its primitive barbarity. When Jesus died for sins he created the biggest sin of all, enslavement of humanity. If Satan existed, he would have devised such a plot. But why blame Satan for anything Christians create for themselves? That's the whole point. Creating scapegoats are designed to avoid a responsible life.
How could anyone believe in this fantasy fiction and consider themselves rational people? But an even more serious question has to do with ritual human sacrifice. Ancients believed that blood carries a special magical life force. They believed the gods needed to be appeased because they hungered for this life force. They choose to serve them clean food, a virgin. Virgins were routinely murdered at alters to feed their hungry god or gods. We saw this same ritual in the binding of Issac in which there was an intervention else would have been carried out. Issac got a pass. About 2000 years later we have Jesus. He is not taken to an alter to be sacrificed. Instead he is crucified but not in a ritual human sacrifice as done in the past. He is executed for the crime is sedition. So the next question is, why are Christians requiring this death to benefit them? The quick answer is because they're idiots but a more deeper probe in their delusional minds yields a cacophony asinine and absurd beliefs that never died. Two thousand year old superstitions perpetuated by ignorance had persisted.
#) Any idea of any person being killed for the express purpose of feeding a god is barbaric and primitive superstition.
#) There is a Christian vampire-like obsession with blood for the superstitious reasons I stated above.
#) The idea of dying for sins comes from the Jewish practice of sending out a goat into the wilderness to die. The tribe prepares two goats and one is randomly chosen to be sent away. This is where the expression scapegoat comes from. A scapegoat theology absolves followers of their personal responsibility for their own sins, that is, if they are assholes, blame someone else. Blame the devil. Blame the heretic. Blame the pagan. Blame the Jew. So on and on. Make someone else pay the price. Find a goat because you have no maturity to take responsibly for yourselves.
#) This the 21st century. Grow up. Blood serves an awesome role in sustaining life in the body but there are no magical properties to it. Telling you to go get a life doesn't mean get blood. It means stop being stupid.
Killing someone does nothing but end the life of that individual. There is no magical effluence or energy released into the air as a food source or has any effect on the weather, on tides, on prices of wheat. It serves no useful purpose at all. And to kill someone who symbolized good, because they're good is very sick. They are insane and the collective insanity of a religion only normalizes this barbaric tradition that has no place in the modern world.
Of course, willfully ignorant Christians will post scripture because their minds are so messed up they can't think like rational people. They are mindf***ed beyond repair. Rational people who think, use reason, logic can fully understand what Sam Harris has commented on and they would have access to personal insight to know that killing anyone for any reason other than self defense is wrong.
[Edited on 9/25/2009 2:18 AM]
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| Sep 25 @ 2:18 AM |
The Sacrifice of Reason by Sam Harris |
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southernlass
Posts: 2,211
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Might I suggest a study upon your own probable condition instead of running more supposedly reasonable trash from Sam Harris by us? Often times when one begins to study one's self, one can attempt a little insight. I believe, though the research says otherwise, that if one can attempt to be honest and really look within, insight is possible. True, it's not probable and the ability for a narcissist to be insightful about himself is rare, but I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule.
Only the unreasonable and the more extremist admire Sam Harris. He's as extremist as they come. An anti-theist, anti-religionist, and a devout hater of religion, Sam Harris is radical and desires to do away with religion entirely. There aren't many who admire "the four horsemen." Sam Harris is one of the horsemen. He's made a name for himself and it isn't exactly a positive name. Most people are clear that the constitution rightly allows freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. Sam Harris has sacrificed reason in his all out assault upon religion and the religious, in my opinion, of course.
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| Sep 25 @ 2:31 AM |
The Sacrifice of Reason by Sam Harris
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pastordon
Posts: 624
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Actually, the Apostle Paul's got the jump on you. Even back in the first century, the Greek philosophers ridiculed salvation through Jesus' death as "weak" and "foolish." However, they--and you, Iam01--are the actual fools, since your attitude towards the gospel will cause you to perish. I mean, how smart is that?
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. For it is written, 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever, I will set aside.'
"Where is the wise man? where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumblingblock and to Gentiles, foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
"Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men." I Cor.1:18-25
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| Sep 25 @ 2:48 AM |
The Sacrifice of Reason by Sam Harris |
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iam01
Posts: 6,265
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Sam Harris says It is essential to realize that such impossibly stupid misuses of human life have always been explicitly religious.
The stupid misuses of human life includes condoning a toxic dogma that causes death and suffering. What excuse can anyone have but the fact they were abused and traumatized while growing up. So was Charles Manson. As an alcoholic, she found relief in drunken stupors and as many dregs became brainwashed with religion.
Still suffering from a bruised life, Jesus becomes the imaginary substitute to fill that dark void. Being so obsessed with extreme religiosity she becomes attracted to bizarre religious extremists such as Anaastasis who wrote pedophile poetry and called women bitches and cunts, condoned murder by praising the Virginia Tech Christian mass murderer. And she also admires missionaries like Todd Nettleton, Director of Media Development for The Voice of the Martyrs, who said,
Our activities can lead to people dying, and we understand that...but, the reality is an eternity with Christ in heaven is so far better than an eternity in hell that it is a good deal. It's a good decision, even if it results in physical punishment here on earth. So who but a mentally disturbed Christian could condone this kind of behavior with their shallow excuses and demented self image?
Christians missionaries are not killing anyone, Iam. Christians are spreading the message of Christ and those who are enemies of the message are responsible for any and all killing. but its Christians who create the circumstance that cause death. Only a mentally deranged Christian would condone it.
People like Sam Harris puts a spotlight on useful idiots of religion like that. That's why she has so much seething hatred for anybody that exposes her deranged mentality that is indifferent to the lives of others.
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| Sep 25 @ 2:52 AM |
The Sacrifice of Reason by Sam Harris
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iam01
Posts: 6,265
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Thank you Pastordon, you have just proved my point  Of course, willfully ignorant Christians will post scripture because their minds are so messed up they can't think like rational people.
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| Sep 25 @ 2:53 AM |
The Sacrifice of Reason by Sam Harris |
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burnslikethesun
Posts: 13,027
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So Sams a chick?
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| Sep 25 @ 3:17 AM |
The Sacrifice of Reason by Sam Harris
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iam01
Posts: 6,265
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Samantha? 
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| Sep 25 @ 3:40 AM |
The Sacrifice of Reason by Sam Harris |
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southernlass
Posts: 2,211
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As I have found myself writing time and time again, I am flabbergasted that anyone who has actually read the books of the New Atheists or heard them speak could still believe them to be "militant" or comparable to religious fanatics or fundamentalists. It's simply not a reasonable conclusion to reach, yet countless supposedly wise men and women have done so.
Indeed, I wonder why. I would think that COUNTLESS supposedly wise men and women aren't wrong.
So once again I find myself unable to explain the backlash among the intelligentsia against the New Atheists except to guess that opposition seems to be the flavor of the week. People seem to be generally uncomfortable with the message of the New Atheists, so let's just go with that flow, the path of least resistance, and join the chorus of those tsk-tsking and finger-wagging at this unpopular group of scientists and thinkers.
http://blocraison.blogspot.com/2009/08/why-debate-new-atheists-when-you-can.html
Amazing that this man admits that the "intelligentsia" get it that Sam Harris and the new atheists, are not exactly "popular." And these are intelligent people, no less! Wow.. I'm relieved to hear that people of intelligence aren't buying into the rot the new atheists are selling.
And wait there's more!
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| Sep 25 @ 3:45 AM |
The Sacrifice of Reason by Sam Harris
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southernlass
Posts: 2,211
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Here's another interesting piece on new atheists like Sam Harris from a well known atheist. It's very telling. Just a get a look at the title!
Why I Think the New Atheists are a Bloody Disaster
Friday August 14, 2009
http://blog.beliefnet.com/scienceandthesacred/2009/08/why-i-think-the-new-atheists-are-a-bloody-disaster.html
Let me say that I believe the new atheists do the side of science a grave disservice. I will defend to the death the right of them to say what they do - as one who is English-born one of the things I admire most about the USA is the First Amendment. But I think first that these people do a disservice to scholarship. Their treatment of the religious viewpoint is pathetic to the point of non-being. Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion would fail any introductory philosophy or religion course. Proudly he criticizes that whereof he knows nothing. As I have said elsewhere, for the first time in my life, I felt sorry for the ontological argument. If we criticized gene theory with as little knowledge as Dawkins has of religion and philosophy, he would be rightly indignant. (He was just this when, thirty years ago, Mary Midgeley went after the selfish gene concept without the slightest knowledge of genetics.) Conversely, I am indignant at the poor quality of the argumentation in Dawkins, Dennett, Hitchens, and all of the others in that group.
Secondly, I think that the new atheists are doing terrible political damage to the cause of Creationism fighting. Americans are religious people. You may not like this fact. But they are. Not all are fanatics. Survey after survey shows that most American Christians (and Jews and others) fall in the middle on social issues like abortion and gay marriage as well as on science. They want to be science-friendly, although it is certainly true that many have been seduced by the Creationists. We evolutionists have got to speak to these people. We have got to show them that Darwinism is their friend not their enemy. We have got to get them onside when it comes to science in the classroom. And criticizing good men like Francis Collins, accusing them of fanaticism, is just not going to do the job. Nor is criticizing everyone, like me, who wants to build a bridge to believers - not accepting the beliefs, but willing to respect someone who does have them. For myself, I would like America to have a healthcare system like Canada - government run, compulsory, universal. It is cheaper and better. But I engage with those who want free enterprise to be involved in the business. Likewise I engage with believers - I don't accept their beliefs but I respect their right to have them.
Most importantly, the new atheists are doing terrible damage to the fight to keep Creationism out of the schools. The First Amendment does not ban the teaching of bad science in publicly funded schools. It bans the teaching of religion. That is why it is crucial to argue that Creationism, including its side kick IDT, is religion and not just bad science. But sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If teaching "God exists" is teaching religion - and it is - then why is teaching "God does not exist" not teaching religion? Obviously it is teaching religion. But if science generally and Darwinism specifically imply that God does not exist, then teaching science generally and Darwinism specifically runs smack up against the First Amendment. Perhaps indeed teaching Darwinism is implicitly teaching atheism. This is the claim of the new atheists. If this is so, then we shall have to live with it and rethink our strategy about Creationism and the schools. The point is however that the new atheists have lamentably failed to prove their point, and excoriating people like me who show the failure is (again) not very helpful.
I think that P. Z. Myers and his crew are as disastrous to the evolution side - and people like me need to say this - as Ben Stein is disastrous to the Creationism side - and the Creationists should have had the guts to say so. I have written elsewhere that The God Delusion makes me ashamed to be an atheist. Let me say that again. Let me say also that I am proud to be the focus of the invective of the new atheists. They are a bloody disaster and I want to be on the front line of those who say so.
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| Sep 25 @ 8:25 AM |
The Sacrifice of Reason by Sam Harris |
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,235
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But if science generally and Darwinism specifically imply that God does not exist, then teaching science generally and Darwinism specifically runs smack up against the First Amendment. Wrong premise, wrong conclusion!
Free speech is an individual right, schools are not individuals, teachers are hired hands they can only teach what is allowed within the state and city overseen by the Federal Government.
This argument belongs at the Supreme Court, not towards any group of Atheist. But then stupid is as stupid does.
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| Sep 25 @ 9:39 AM |
The Sacrifice of Reason by Sam Harris
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iam01
Posts: 6,265
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Wrong premise, wrong conclusion! ===> Just plain wrong!!
Christians like Pastordon and SL have shown a lack of intellectual capability of reasoning on any level with anything Sam Harris has said. Pastordon had no useful thoughts formulated well enough so instead posted scripture. SL had no useful thoughts so she posted a C&P. They do this because they are useful idiots for their own dead end cause. They, along with other Christians, are guilty of depraved indifference of the harm their own religion has done to them and to innocent people throughout history. They are brainwashed into perpetuating a dangerous and mindless delusion.
Remember, these people actually believe a snake talked, a man levitated off the ground into the clouds and burning shrub spoke. How different is any of that ludicrous nonsense from any mindless babbling of a patient in a mental hospital? And isn't mindless babbling one of the things Christians actively pursue in what they call speaking in tongues? Whoever constructed that practical joke was a genius.
Why does SL show a lack of intellectual capability? She gives us hints with statements like these.
We, the believers, do not base our belief on thinking or feeling. We base our belief on faith. And we, as Christians, aren't going to evolve either There is nothing wrong with "thinking critically." One simply doesn't want to critically think himself right into hell, is my take on the matter.
This falls right in line with soc's anti-brain anti-mind pro-mental disability statement
It is my ambition to no longer need to employ either knowledge or logic in my life
Can you imagine how well that would go at a job interview or team meeting at a business function? 
They have sacrificed reason.
[Edited on 9/25/2009 9:49 AM]
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| Sep 25 @ 11:32 AM |
The Sacrifice of Reason by Sam Harris |
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,235
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And we, as Christians, aren't going to evolve either
This is hogwash you evolve every single instance of every single day simply as you encounter others and/or experiences directly or indirectly you are still evolving
Every single person evolves uniquely unto them selves.
Now you may think you know all there is about heaven or hell but without any direct experience you are just twiddling your thumbs.
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| Sep 25 @ 1:06 PM |
The Sacrifice of Reason by Sam Harris
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alivenwell351
Posts: 3,011
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My guess is there is a significantly larger number of fanatical christians who, if they had their way and the juice to pull it off, would have every facet of every American's life controlled by the scripture & beliefs of their mythical dogma, than there are fanatical athiests like Harris who, if they had their way & the juice to pull it off, would shut religion down. Just turn on your TV any Sunday morning for proof enough of that!!
Fortunately, the majority of folks, christians & heathens alike, have a live and let live belief towards life in general...religion included...
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| Sep 25 @ 1:17 PM |
The Sacrifice of Reason by Sam Harris |
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iam01
Posts: 6,265
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Harris doesn't want religion shut down nor do people like Dawkins. Hitchens would probably want it completely shut down because he sees nothing good about it I could be wrong about that. What Harris wants to see is rational thinking with regards to any kind of spirituality. Religion avoids this rational thinking because it doesn't use reason, it uses fear to emotionally manipulate and instill fairytale like beliefs that does no one good. He states 44% of Americans actually believes Jesus will appear in their lifetimes or the next 50 years. Now that is really delusional.
But Christians who subscribe to Dominion Theology very much do want to control every aspect of American life. You have no idea how close we got to that.
Fortunately, the majority of folks, christians & heathens alike, have a live and let live belief towards life in general, and religion in particular... Unfortunately, it was the live and let live majority who allowed religious extremism to get where it is today. Its the reason why political candidates, especially republican are batshit nuts religious. You had one guy wearing magic underwear and had a theology that black people were an inferior race, another who believed in a literal Genesis. Harris makes the case that it was the moderately religious middle of the road who enabled the extremists like that to so slowly encroach on political power.
We've actually seen some change in this area. Jerry Falwell himself said it would be better to have an atheist president who knew how to protect this country than a Sunday school teacher who didn't know politics. A few weeks later, after saying that, he was found dead on the floor of his office.
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| Sep 25 @ 4:37 PM |
The Sacrifice of Reason by Sam Harris
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southernlass
Posts: 2,211
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It's good to hear from a rational agnostic like Alive, who is not one of the new atheists, thankfully, even during the times that he leans toward atheism. The difference is clear between one who does live and let live and allows everyone to believe as they choose freely without wrath, and those who are so rabid that they would take over and force everyone else to believe as they demand. There is no live and let live within them. They must control at all costs, through the ridicule of others, through hatred, through mocking what they don't understand, through degrading and demeaning people who only want to practice their religious beliefs in peace.
Sam Harris and the other three horsemen are attempting to spread their beliefs all over the country and even the world. Fortunately, as we can see from the readings above, most intelligent people aren't buying it. Even other atheists aren't buying it and they are resentful that the new atheists are screwing things up for them.
Why? Because it's exactly as Alive said -- most people are freaking normal! They are moderate. They believe in LIVE AND LET LIVE.
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| Sep 25 @ 4:43 PM |
The Sacrifice of Reason by Sam Harris |
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kattsmeow
Posts: 22,625
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Remember, these people actually believe a snake talked, a man levitated off the ground into the clouds and burning shrub spoke.
Do you ever get tired of saying the same old thing?
This really should have been a blog I think?
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| Sep 25 @ 5:01 PM |
The Sacrifice of Reason by Sam Harris
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Deborah551
Posts: 1,010
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Well, the best thing to do, Katt, is ignore his posts and not even comment on them. Maybe curiosity killed the Katt and you really can't stay away from his posts?
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| Sep 25 @ 5:12 PM |
The Sacrifice of Reason by Sam Harris |
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kattsmeow
Posts: 22,625
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I do try to read his post, if it is something different.
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