| Oct 2 @ 11:05 AM |
Respect for Beliefs
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Thor1960303
Posts: 3,345
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I can respect a person. I can respect their right to make free choices. As one who leans toward Libertarianism, I respect the freedom to chose your beliefs and express them. Does this mean that I have to respect the beliefs? Let's look at this. Years ago, I read Hitler's Mein Kampf and while I would never be in favor of any kind of book burning, I have little to no respect for anything espoused in that book.
Christians are ever complaining about the lack of respect for their beliefs. Is this really a requirement of a free society? Many Fundy Christians are among the loudest to complain about political correctness when they're admonished to show respect in their expression about people who's beliefs differ from their own.
Personally, I think that if it's OK to trash someone's politics, as we see every time there's an election, then religion should be fair game as well. So what if feelings are hurt? It's part of the price you pay for living in a society where free speech is allowed. The alternative is the militant PC ism that Fundy Christian conservatives hate so much that threatens to silence everyone.
Historically, have Christians been respectful of other beliefs? As one who remembers the so called "good old days" when Blue Laws were enforced, I can tell you that if you were an atheist living in the deep south in the early 60's and you expressed that fact publicly, ridicule was the LEAST of your worries. Growing up in Charleston, SC in the 60's I can tell you that atheists were considered a notch or two below Jews and African Americans.You were subject to be beaten up and/ or strongly urged to leave town and if you escaped that, you could count on being socially shunned. Even today, I've gotten grief from Christians when they, assuming that I believed as they do,expressed their belief that the world was going to hell in a hand basket because of the heathens and I would disagree and reveal to them that I wasn't a believer. My youngest daughter has gotten grief from Christians who have "witnessed" to her and she told them that she was an atheist, even having the parents forbid their children to have anything to do with her. I do not respond in kind as my daughter has friends of all beliefs and non beliefs.
So now I ask you, why should we hold our tongues when we are expressing what we believe about what Christians and others believe? It would be less than honest if I called your beliefs anything but fantasy and myth because that's what I truly believe in my heart of hearts that's what they are. You, of course are just as free to call our beliefs pathetic, amoral, empty, impersonal, void or whatever adjective you wish to use. Trust me, I for one won't be offended.
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| Oct 2 @ 11:08 AM |
Respect for Beliefs |
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,267
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Just cite what Left Wing Christians say about Right Wing Christians and it is they who blow up one another, people who take Christianity with a grain of salt can just sit back and enjoy the fireworks. 
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| Oct 2 @ 11:24 AM |
Respect for Beliefs
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iam01
Posts: 6,285
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If anyone is asking for respect for their beliefs, they deserve nothing but mockery. Respecting beliefs is not how we evolve. Beliefs are not solid things. Beliefs are only internal representations of what they think is true, nothing more. As you learn new facts, your beliefs get updated. As knowledge grows so do your beliefs. Science shows us the world is not flat, the sun does not revolve around the earth, the earth is not 6000 years old. So why should these beliefs be respected when they're not only wrong but wrong at an astronomical magnitude?
The only thing that should be respected is someone's right to believe what they want no matter how stupid. Its when they apply those ridiculous, stupid and dangerous beliefs their rights should end. No one has a right to deny a child medical care because of their superstitions. There is no excuse for allowing that.
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| Oct 2 @ 1:27 PM |
Respect for Beliefs |
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Jankia
Posts: 11,909
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Christians are ever complaining about the lack of respect for their beliefs. I think thats where you dont get it Thor,its not so much complaining about that as it is about respect for why we follow Christianity. Sure we were all taught to respect the words in the Bible but Christianity to me is about much more then scripture.
You know well whats written in the Bible,much more then I do but you dont know what I do about the God the Bible presents.
Nobody knows that detail about anyone else.
Thats the detail that should be respected,the rest is only a common known just like the common laws we disrespect everytime we drive over the speed limit.
We all believe why the rules are presented we just dont always believe in how they are.
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| Oct 2 @ 2:50 PM |
Respect for Beliefs
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 1,092
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Well, I guess there are different types of disrespect for religion.
If you are talkiong about flat out mockery and ridicule, then some people will be offended and some will just shrug it off.
As far as disagreement, I think there is important to do. I think you MUST disagree. It is always more pleasant if can be done civilly, some sort of "I don't agree, and here's why"
The basic point is correct. No one owes anyone any respect., but disrespect breeds bickering, and that is a waste of time.
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| Oct 2 @ 3:00 PM |
Respect for Beliefs |
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iam01
Posts: 6,285
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In the past, religion has always had the means to silence those who spoke out against dogma no matter how polite they did it. They were threatened and very often literally slaughtered. I suppose now all they can do is wish a person to death and complain like hell. Must be very frustrating when someone can't be hung, burned or disemboweled like in the old days.
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| Oct 2 @ 3:27 PM |
Respect for Beliefs
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 1,092
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In the past, religion has always had the means to silence those who spoke out against dogma no matter how polite they did it. They were threatened and very often literally slaughtered. I suppose now all they can do is wish a person to death and complain like hell. Must be very frustrating when someone can't be hung, burned or disemboweled like in the old days. Well, IMHO, wicked people are just wicked. I don't think it is the religion that makes them wicked. If someone does wicked things claiming the authority of God, then that is an abomination. Sadly, it has happened alot. Evern in the US, we have hung/burned a few witches.
Hopefully, we have grown as a society and are done with all of that.
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| Oct 2 @ 3:43 PM |
Respect for Beliefs |
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Bj864
Posts: 3,964
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You can respect a persons right to worship as they please (within the law), but that does not mean you have to agree with it.
It is when people are called stupid, ignorant etc that lack of respect is shown, not when a person differs with something in the religion.
People who show disrespect to others on this forum, show it in other areas too. To me a person that is disrespectful to others, has little to no respect for themselves.
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| Oct 2 @ 3:54 PM |
Respect for Beliefs
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iam01
Posts: 6,285
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They say evil people do evil things but religion can make good people do evil things. We know this is a fact in psychological experiments showing how people respond to authority and defer personal responsibility to them. By eliminating religion as a control source we spare the planet one source of evil behavior. Its only because of secular laws that religion can't do what it once did only a very short time ago. In countries that are theocratic we see beheadings, amputations and honor killings in everyday life. If the USA was a theocracy, we would see the Bible Belt as the center of government, Holy Wars using nuclear weapons. Heretics, apostates and infidels would be murdered just like in the game Left Behind:Eternal Forces. We would see modern day crusaders and even crucifixion.
Hopefully, we have grown as a society and are done with all of that. Hopefully we will never become a theocracy. We've been pretty close and the Bush Administration had a large number of graduates from Liberty University. They had one inexperienced young graduate doing evaluations for all the justices in the country. How insane is that? What qualifications did they have? None, just that they graduated from LU. Then we had Sarah Palin doing exorcisms against witches putting curses on her? That's just too insane.
So how can anyone, even moderately religious people respect this sort if ridiculous fanaticism? The answer is they are either ignoring it, unaware or are finding themselves marginalized.
[Edited on 10/2/2009 4:07 PM]
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| Oct 2 @ 4:37 PM |
Respect for Beliefs |
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Bj864
Posts: 3,964
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So how can anyone, even moderately religious people respect this sort if ridiculous fanaticism? The answer is they are either ignoring it, unaware or are finding themselves marginalized.
You are missing the point.
You do NOT have to believe what they believe, only that they have the right to believe as they want without being called names
You can call the belief fanatic, radical or whatever (in your opinion), but you don't have to call the person names or put them down.
What is totally acceptable to some people, is way to the extreme to others.
I say, stay within the law and do NOT try to impose your beliefs on other people. That is in itself a form of disrespect for others.
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| Oct 2 @ 4:57 PM |
Respect for Beliefs
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iam01
Posts: 6,285
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You are missing the point. No, you're missing the whole point because you are ignoring it. Do you think anyone would get a job as a CEO or public elected official if they truly believed Elvis is alive or claims they were taken aboard an alien space ship for experiments?
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| Oct 2 @ 4:58 PM |
Respect for Beliefs |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 1,092
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They say evil people do evil things but religion can make good people do evil things. We know this is a fact in psychological experiments showing how people respond to authority and defer personal responsibility to them. Good thoughts. Reasonable assertions.
I 1/2 agree with you on this one. I agree that religion could be misused as a tool for evil people to get regular folks to do evil things, but that is present even without the religon. William Shatner was in a TV movie that outlined the Milgram Experiments
Milgram Experiment
Basically, regular people tortured (or though they were) other regular people with electric shocks becuase a guy in a lab coat told them too.
Nazi Germany has been described the same way. Regular people getting caught up and doing evil things that they normally would not have done.
I would argue that wicked people will find whatever venue is avialable to them to control and manipulate others. The teachings of the Christ are benevolency. I am thinking that the benefit, and the positive changes that some people receive from it (I have known many) outweigh the ones that are manipulated to evil by an altered version of Christianity (you always hear about those, and sure they exist, but how common)
Also, I am thinking that, even if you could somehow stamp out all religion, those sort of mind control games would still exist, just that other means would be employed.
The real truth is, I think, that X% of the popluation is weak minded enough to be manipulated by the other people with evil intent. Removing religion from the regular folks who are just trying to follow it's virtues is not going to fix that.
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| Oct 2 @ 5:31 PM |
Respect for Beliefs
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iam01
Posts: 6,285
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Also, I am thinking that, even if you could somehow stamp out all religion, those sort of mind control games would still exist, just that other means would be employed. Yes that's true and that void would be filled in by politics. However, religion enjoys a special status of it being unquestioned , unchallenged and blindly followed. Its far more pervasive and invasive than any other mind altering ideology including politics and rock and roll combined.
Politics is guilty of playing mind games using misinformation, character assassination, lies and deceit. But in a democracy, we're allowed to grill and impeach bad leaders. They stay in office for a term, not until they die. Not so in religion. Maybe for small time preachers but not the big guys who wield a lot of tax free financial power and own business where they can screw with people's livelihoods. Politics, at least, tries to work within this century. Religion turns to literature written over 2000 years ago.
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| Oct 2 @ 5:56 PM |
Respect for Beliefs |
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CPUfan
Posts: 7,983
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One of the functions of religion in Nazi Germany was to justify external adventures in terms of "crusades" and "struggles for civilisation" !
In the early years of the war Hitler wanted free hands to conquer Western Europe and Stalin assisted him by entering a Pact to share Poland and the Baltic States. From 1941 however, Germany was recruiting other Central and Eastern European states for its "anti-Bolshevik Crusade". States such as Roumania and Bulgaria were Orthodox and feared their great atheistic neighbour the USSR. They fell easily into Hitler's orbit. Hungary and Finland (Lutheran state church) followed suit. Finland was actually liberated from the USSR during the Russian revolution with Swedish and German help.
Throughout WW2 Nazi propaganda referred incessantly to the "Jewish Bolshevik hordes" who would overrun the "West" if Germany did not take up the struggle for "civilisation." The campaign was very successful. Millions of Western and Eastern Europeans joined the Waffen-SS to fight on the Eastern Front. In the end, Germans formed less than half of the military organisation. There were Danish, Belgian, Dutch, Norwegian, Swedish, French, Russian and Ukrainian battalions.
Neutral Sweden was recruiting for the Waffen-SS until 1943, by which time things had already chilled down very violently on the Eastern Front.
Fear of a "Jewish Bolshevik" or atheist invasion from the East kept the troops committed until the whole of Central Europe lay in ruins.
In the end, who was worst, Hitler or Stalin well, anyone's guess but the Soviet state killed almost as many of its own people between 1920 and 1945 as the Nazis did. Instead of posing as religious however, Stalin justified his genocide with reference to Marxist ideology. Much as Pol Pot and others did.
To be honest, I can find no redeeming features in either of their beliefs or ideologies.
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| Oct 2 @ 6:54 PM |
Respect for Beliefs
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burnslikethesun
Posts: 13,027
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To be able to give respect for anything, you first have to have respect for your ownself.
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| Oct 2 @ 7:45 PM |
Respect for Beliefs |
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southernlass
Posts: 2,240
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In my opinion, if you really love others as you love yourself, you want them to have the freedom of choice.
I don't believe that real love pushes its perspective onto others and it doesn't want to force. I'm not saying that real love doesn't share its perspective because communication with others about what one loves is love, but forcing it down the throat of others is self-centered, demanding, self-serving, immature narcissism.
Acceptance of other people's points of view and their entitlement to that is respect for other human beings. I believe in respect deeply and even when I don't agree with someone's spiritual or religious beliefs, I am always supporting of their right to them and my right to mine. I prefer to believe that most people do want to live in peace and harmony, despite our differences. I am aware, however, that there are those who cannot stand peace and harmony, who are incapable of respect. I continue to hope that these kinds of people will stay in the minority, and that we in the US will always support one another's right to our differences and right to express those differences respectfully.
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| Oct 3 @ 8:51 AM |
Respect for Beliefs
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,267
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In my opinion, if you really love others as you love yourself, you want them to have the freedom of choice. First we are all born with Free Choice and Free Will the issue of if we can exercise it or not has a lot to do with our parents [or guardian] and the society we are raised in.
No one loves another more than self, period and you cannot love another more than you love yourself. If you love another as you love yourself you are a very rare bird if you know how much you love yourself.
If you wish to know how much you love yourself enlist in the military and see the world on $5 a day then hope you do not kiss your sweet ass goodbye while on that vacation... 
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| Oct 3 @ 8:57 AM |
Respect for Beliefs |
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,267
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Acceptance of other people's points of view and their entitlement to that is respect for other human beings. I believe in respect deeply and even when I don't agree with someone's spiritual or religious beliefs, I am always supporting of their right to them and my right to mine. I prefer to believe that most people do want to live in peace and harmony, despite our differences. I am aware, however, that there are those who cannot stand peace and harmony, who are incapable of respect. I continue to hope that these kinds of people will stay in the minority, and that we in the US will always support one another's right to our differences and right to express those differences respectfully. The intent of this is well said but the true reality of people with differing opinions and religions has shown they cannot all just get along.
When you choose sides and are oral about be it political or religious you open yourself to scorn as their are those that take exception to your views as Christian anything tends to tell others if they do not become Christian well then you know what. It is no different than a Democrat taking on a Republican in their exchange of ideas.
I am a subscriber to Free Choice and Free Will but that does not extend to a person telling me I am going to hell if I do not believe as they do.
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| Oct 3 @ 11:58 AM |
Respect for Beliefs
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 1,092
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No one loves another more than self, period and you cannot love another more than you love yourself. If you love another as you love yourself you are a very rare bird if you know how much you love yourself. I have to disagree. Many parents would sacrifice themselves to save their child. There are accounts of military people throwing themselves on grenades to save thier buddies.
The intent of this is well said but the true reality of people with differing opinions and religions has shown they cannot all just get along. Not true. I tend to get more flack from the Christian folk, Janika, SOC, bev, hunt, etc. One of the most insulting things one Christian can do another is impune their salvation. It has happened to me several times on here.
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| Oct 3 @ 1:21 PM |
Respect for Beliefs |
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Jankia
Posts: 11,909
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I have to disagree. Many parents would sacrifice themselves to save their child  Very true lance but I suppose the key word there is "many"...not all.
Not true. I tend to get more flack from the Christian folk, Janika, SOC, bev, hunt, etc. One of the most insulting things one Christian can do another is impune their salvation. It has happened to me several times on here. Since you dont want to let go of what I only questioned you about Lance,please inform me of how I "impuned your salvation"? 
Would that be like you not admitting to have used someone elses words that you attributed to me?
I really do wonder how the respectfully honest questions I asked you,that you refused to answer are considered "flack".
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