| Oct 9 @ 8:23 AM |
The Trinity
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,236
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Historical Background of the Trinity
By Jeff Rath 11-97
The current mainstream teaching in Christianity is that God is a coequal, coeternal, one-substance trinity, and that Jesus Christ is God. This doctrine is considered by many as the cornerstone of Christianity, but where did this doctrine come from? The historical record is overwhelming that the church of the first three centuries did not worship God as a coequal, coeternal, consubstantial, one-substance three in one mysterious godhead. The early church worshipped one God and believed in a subordinate Son. The trinity originated with Babylon, and was passed on to most of the world's religions. This polytheistic (believing in more than one god) trinitarianism was intertwined with Greek religion and philosophy and slowly worked its way into Christian thought and creeds some 300 years after Christ. The idea of "God the Son" is Babylonian paganism and mythology that was grafted into Christianity. Worshipping "God the Son" is idolatry, and idolatry is Biblically condemned; it breaks the first great commandment of God of not having any gods before him (Exodus 20:3). Then three centuries after Christ the corrupt emperor Constantine forced the minority opinion of the trinity upon the council of Nicea. The Christian church went downward from there; in fact some of the creeds and councils actually contradict each other. The council of Nicea 325 said that "Jesus Christ is God," the council of Constantinople 381 said that "the Holy Spirit is God," the council of Ephesus 431 said that "human beings are totally depraved," the council of Chalcedon 451 said that "Jesus Christ is both man and God." If you follow the logic here then first you have Jesus Christ as God, then you have man totally depraved, and then you have Jesus Christ as man and God. If Jesus Christ is both man and God does this mean that God is also totally depraved? Well maybe the doctrine of the coequal, coeternal, one-substance, mysterious three in one triune godhead is deprived of any historical foundation tying it into the Christianity of the Bible and the Christianity of the first three centuries. However the historical information ties the trinity into various pagan origins.
And yet most Christian churches continue to teach and believe the doctrine that God is a coequal, coeternal, one-substance, mysterious three in one triune godhead, and that Jesus Christ is God, and that the trinity is "the cornerstone of Christianity".
The Church of the First Three Centuries 1865 Alvan Lamson
" . . . The modern doctrine of the Trinity is not found in any document or relic belonging to the Church of the first three centuries. . . so far as any remains or any record of them are preserved, coming down from early times, are, as regards this doctrine an absolute blank. They testify, so far as they testify at all, to the supremacy of the father, the only true God; and to the inferior and derived nature of the Son. There is nowhere among these remains a coequal trinity. . . but no un-divided three, -- coequal, infinite, self-existent, and eternal. This was a conception to which the age had not arrived. It was of later origin."
During the first three centuries, Christians did not believe that Jesus Christ was coequal, and coeternal with God, or that he was God the Son, they believed that Jesus Christ was subordinate to God, and that he had a beginning, that he was born. Those that believed otherwise were the exception.http://www.christadelphia.org/trinityhistory.htm
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| Oct 15 @ 12:54 AM |
The Trinity |
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lacyvsq
Posts: 6,161
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It's rather interesting that the 'church' has been a leader in taking the sheep down a path contrary to blessing and law.
So the creeds of the apostolic faith begin by missing on the first commandment.
Then there are religious icons -- most notably the cross -- to violate the second.
Then, in spite of the ancient writings kept within the bowels of the Vatican, the 'name' of YHWH has been almost entirely forgotten by the masses of Christians -- the third commandment.
Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy...but the Lord's Day has been shifted to the first day of the week.
Honor father and mother...  any official perversions of this? At any rate there is very little honoring going on in our culture today and if the law refers to father spirit, earth mother - physical - well not much of that goes on in Christianity either -- which meditation (spirit honor) and body care kinda in gross neglect in our culture.. This is the fifth commandment and the first one with a lure -- that one's days will be long on the earth.
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| Oct 15 @ 6:04 AM |
The Trinity
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 7,438
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I am a Christian. That is not what I was taught. I was taught in the existence of only one God.
Not several Gods.
One God. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
No one is capable of understanding Him by themselves.
The Holy Spirit is necessary here.
Asking for anyone else's help is beyond some of us though.
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| Oct 15 @ 7:16 AM |
The Trinity |
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,236
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I presented the facts you decide 
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| Oct 15 @ 10:35 AM |
The Trinity
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lacyvsq
Posts: 6,161
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I wonder why the church councils felt it was necessary or desirable to split the one god into three persons. Certainly an infinite presence could (and would) occupy the body of the man who taught truth and was killed and those who followed him -- whom he told would do much greater things than he had done.
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| Oct 15 @ 5:24 PM |
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Jankia
Posts: 11,900
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Heck,the first line of your "facts" belongs in the BS bin at the feedlot.
The current mainstream teaching in Christianity is that God is a coequal, coeternal, one-substance trinity, and that Jesus Christ is God. I'm not one for quoting scripture but it takes fact to prove BS.
The mainstream teaching of this regard in Christianity comes from John 14:28
You heard me say to you, 1 ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad 2 that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am
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| Oct 15 @ 5:55 PM |
The Trinity
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arieann
Posts: 2,078
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I wonder why the church councils felt it was necessary or desirable to split the one god into three persons
This is going to sound weird, but he is not three, but three in one.The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Ice. You melt it. It turns to water.Boil it. It turns to steam. But it is all the same sample, just in three different forms. I hope that makes sense. 
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| Oct 15 @ 6:11 PM |
The Trinity |
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SensualGemini
Posts: 6,892
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Yash: from your quote: "And yet most Christian churches continue to teach and believe the doctrine that God is a coequal, coeternal, one-substance, mysterious three in one triune godhead, and that Jesus Christ is God, and that the trinity is "the cornerstone of Christianity"."
...Yes, I have heard many "Christians" say that Jesus is their god, so there are denominations teaching this. I think their confusion is that Jesus is identified in translation as god, with a small "g," while the supreme being Yah, or as argued by many whether or not the -weh belongs in the translation as Yahweh, is represented in most modern bibles as "God," with a capital "G."
...Years ago, I was interested in the personal confusion, if not the contradiction of the Trinity and talked to several well educated people in theology... as I lived close to a theological college. After all, Jesus walked the earth and if no man can look at Yahweh, there was an issue.
...The Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, was explained as being a family, as three separate entities, combined as one. Well, alright, that makes some sense, but we still have Christians professing Jesus is their God and although he may be their god, as in savior in translation, he is certainly not their God, as the supreme being of creation.
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| Oct 15 @ 6:25 PM |
The Trinity
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Jankia
Posts: 11,900
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Maybe the confusion comes when praying to God through Jesus,they are considering Jesus to be the God?
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| Oct 15 @ 8:58 PM |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 1,092
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I look at the three as being part of the whole. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all part of God. Just like The father, mother, and child are part of the family.
IT goes without saying that an all powerful God has the ability to assume various forms and incarnations. And yes, he can make a stone so heavy he can't lift it, as he has the power to limit himself. Otherwise, Yeashua needn't have had to die on the cross. Since he is the boss, he could have just said "nevermind"
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| Oct 15 @ 9:06 PM |
The Trinity
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 7,438
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"I look at the three as being part of the whole. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all part of God. Just like The father, mother, and child are part of the family." -Lance
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| Oct 15 @ 9:39 PM |
The Trinity |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 1,092
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LOL, I had myself all braced for a big rebuttal and I get a thumbs up.
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| Oct 15 @ 9:55 PM |
The Trinity
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SensualGemini
Posts: 6,892
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Lance: I look at the three as being part of the whole. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all part of God. Just like The father, mother, and child are part of the family.
...Here, I will give you one, just to hear the rebuttal. 
...Grammatically by comparison, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, Ghost, or whatever, are not each a part of God, but a part of the Trinity, as in "the family."
...That is, unless you are making claim that the Trinity is a name for God and then you would have to prove it, or that "the Father" is not God.
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Jankia: Maybe the confusion comes when praying to God through Jesus,they are considering Jesus to be the God?
...I think so, as well as in the translation, those little "g's" in god, are pertaining to Jesus and they are confused that it means God, or the supreme creator of it all.
...Nevertheless, it reveals their lack of biblical education, when they emphatically state that "Jesus is my God," rather than "my savior."
...Discernment is up to each and every one of us, while there is "only one religion" and which one is it? Since Christianity wrote this, is it each of the over different 300 sects, all of them, or none of them?
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| Oct 15 @ 10:37 PM |
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Angel54214
Posts: 18,199
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...Nevertheless, it reveals their lack of biblical education, when they emphatically state that "Jesus is my God," rather than "my savior." I agree with your statement SG For those that state Jesus is God, but don't even read what the scriptures say...Even the last book...Revelation, which was given to Jesus by God...
Rev. 1:
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. What's really amazing is all those that believe in the Rapture and the Armageddon that has been predicted by thousands and still predicted as well as thousands that believe them to happen in an aeon...didn't read the preface in the first verse for if they did, they would have read..."which must shortly come to pass". And the Apocalypse Prophesy was written to the Servants of God that righteously and heartfully "serve" him on earth.
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| Oct 16 @ 12:54 AM |
The Trinity
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lacyvsq
Posts: 6,161
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...That is, unless you are making claim that the Trinity is a name for God and then you would have to prove it, or that "the Father" is not God.
This is the Nicene Creed -- part of the Catholic, Anglican, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Reformed (Calvinist), Methodist and Lutheran church faiths (and probably more)...
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
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| Oct 17 @ 4:01 PM |
The Trinity |
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Peregrino
Posts: 4
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" the Father and I are one." "If you have seen me you have seen the Father." As with the rest of the bible, you can make a case for anything you want. You want to prove God is Unitarian? String texts together and viola! Arianism! You can also prove, with texts as above, that He is a Duality, and Viola! Armstrong's position. Certainly the Trinitarians can make much of "and the three are one," which must be refuted as "spurious" by nit-picking Unitarians. And so it goes....a huge waste of time. 
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| Oct 17 @ 5:00 PM |
The Trinity
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Angel54214
Posts: 18,199
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the Father and I are one
A "snippet" scripture from Jesus' prayer to the Father in John 17...
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name the name you gave me so that they may be one as we are one.
And again in John 20...
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one.
Jesus was speaking of his "Spiritual Unity" with the Father as well as the "Spiritual Unity" of those that followed him, which all are unified with God the Father.
If you have seen me you have seen the Father
This Jesus said to the Pharisees in John 8 as pertaining to being a witness as well as God is his witness and Jesus did not witness of himself only as the Pharisees accused him of...
http://www.kjv-bible-online.com/John/chapter8.html
[Edited on 10/17/2009 5:06 PM]
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| Oct 17 @ 7:50 PM |
The Trinity |
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 7,438
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| Oct 17 @ 11:34 PM |
The Trinity
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bunnybiz
Posts: 4,759
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Yash, thank you for that information. I have seen that site before.
No, I do not believe in the Trinity. I do believe the Father is Supreme being. I do believe the Son was begotten and therefore had a beginning. The Son is not eternal. I think God is just a title and gets somewhat confusing. Because it states in the word that the Son is the real image of invisible God or the Father, then in that sense having all (power, knowledge, etc.) given to the Son, He is called God (a title) like Lord (a title). What I believe of the Holy Spirit or spirit of God, spirit of Christ (just names for the same thing), is that it is a possession of the Father was given to the Son. The Son gives that same Spirit to whom He chooses. The spirit of God is not a person. I remember a scripture mention Jesus had the spirit without measure. Well those the Son gives the spirit of God to have it with measure. They do not have the fullness of it (spirit of God). And it is said that Father and Son makes their abode in them (through the same spirit).
If no one has ever seen or heard the Father except the Son, who was Adam talking to in the garden? consider
All is of Love.
[Edited on 10/18/2009 12:01 AM]
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| Oct 19 @ 10:01 AM |
The Trinity |
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,236
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No, I do not believe in the Trinity. Perhaps if the OT or NT had some support for The idea of the Trinity it would carry more weight than it does now.
To me it seems a convenient method to get around the argument within the church between Jesus and Christ being two separate entities.
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