| Oct 28 @ 11:08 PM |
The Christian becomes a new creation at Baptism
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 7,432
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Often in this forum we hear the cry raised that we, as Christians, have been told not to be judgemental.
It is true. We are not to judge.
But do not for a moment believe that to mean that the Christian has been directed to become unable to recognize evil when we see or hear it. Are we not to apply our God-given talents and gifts?
In 1Corinthians 2:6--"We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7--No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8--None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9--However, as it is written: 'No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love Him', (Isaiah 64:4), 10--but God has revealed it to us by His Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11--For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12--We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13--This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14--The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15--The spiritual man makes judgements about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgement: 16--'For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?' (Isaiah 40:13) But we have the mind of Christ."
When we received the Spirit of Christ at Baptism, we became changed.
We are different.
The spiritual rules applicable to the life of the secular person no longer apply to us.
Are we still secular people?
Or have we changed?
The same rules no longer apply to the person filled with the Spirit of Jesus Christ. At Baptism, we became new creations. 
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| Oct 29 @ 7:59 AM |
The Christian becomes a new creation at Baptism |
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,177
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Recently, one of the largest Baptist churches in Oklahoma has put the issue of baptism to a vote. This 7,000 member mega church under the guidance of its pastors is in the process of deciding whether or not baptism should be required for people who desire to become members of the Henderson Hills Baptist Church. In support of their position to do away with baptism as a requirement for membership the church issued the following statement: “First, we do not find clear biblical evidence for using baptism as a prerequisite. We have read and reread the New Testament searching for one. ... Secondly, if there is no clear biblical command requiring baptism as a prerequisite for membership, then each local church has the right to decide whether or not baptism should be used as a prerequisite.”
Obviously, the Orthodox Church opposes such a position 100%. Certainly, we can find direct scriptural evidence for baptism in the Bible (see Matthew 28.19, John 3.5, Mark 1.9, Acts 8.36, and Acts 9.18). In fact, the very word baptism comes from the Greek verb, baptizo, which means to immerse, it would appear that the Baptist have forgotten the origin of their own name! Yet, the decision of Henderson Hills raises the broader question of whether or not all Christians are the same. To put this question a different way we can ask; do all Christians believe the same thing and therefore worship the same God?
It is not unusual for Christians of various denominations to reach the conclusion that ultimately we all believe the same things. However, when you survey the wide range of differences between Christians you quickly realize we don’t share the same faith. For example, some believe baptism is unnecessary while others think you can’t do without it. Some say that once you have been saved you can never lose your spot in heaven and other Christians caution that your salvation is in question up to your last moment on earth. Certain Christians dismiss any and all sacraments including the Eucharist, while others believe it to be the real Body and Blood of Christ. Of course, the list goes on. . .
Such a situation is not new to the Church. From the beginning there have been differences in teaching between people claiming to follow Christ. The great Apostle Paul struggled with this very problem and wrote to two communities urging them to stay faithful to the one true Gospel, see 2 Corinthians 11:4, and Galatians 1:6. For St. Paul there were not many Gospels but one.
It appears as if we have not moved very far from this ancient problem. So what should we do? Obviously, the Church reacted against the heresies of old by defining what was and was not appropriate teaching and dogma. For example, the Church defended the person of Jesus Christ claiming that he was truly God and man against the heretical claims of various first century groups. Later, the Church would develop creeds that gave the faithful a laundry list of what was acceptable to believe. Our situation today has not changed. Churches continue to emerge seemingly out of nowhere to preach new and different gospels. These gospels turn out to be very different from the one that we have received and if we are not careful we too will be carried away and forsake the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. St. Paul cautioned Christians against such a drift from true faith when he wrote in Hebrews 13.8-9a, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings.”
Against all of this we can resolve to follow the advice of St. Vincent of Lérins who lived in what is now France. He came up with a formula that was very useful in determining whether or not something was true to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He said that any teaching by Christians must meet three criteria: universality, antiquity, and consent. Or in other words, it would have to be believed everywhere in the world, not just in one geographic area; it would have to have been believed from the beginning, not just in the past two hundred years; and it would have to be believed by everyone, not just one group. Obviously, Henderson Hills’ new teaching on baptism doesn’t appear to meet even one of these criteria.
http://www.stspyridon.co.goarch.org/vsItemDisplay.dsp&objectID=11CB3DEE-F0D4-4A65-BAF63FEF0B26BF6F&method=display
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| Oct 29 @ 8:03 AM |
The Christian becomes a new creation at Baptism
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,177
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Are we not to apply our God-given talents and gifts? Please provide for us a list of your God given talents.....
I would like to see this list for SL, Jankia, pastordon, MrPaul etc.
Just what special gifts do you and the above have that others do not?
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| Oct 29 @ 1:06 PM |
The Christian becomes a new creation at Baptism |
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beckyiv42000
Posts: 14,576
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I was taught being Baptized was a right of passage into a religion.. a blessing...and for most religions being baptized is a prerequisite to being considered of that faith..how silly ..I mean really.. how can a baby attain this state of being a certain faith? I know this is the reason that in the Catholic Church they have the different sacraments... Baptism, Confession/Reconciliation, Communion/Eucharist, CONFIRMATION, Marriage, Holy Orders , Extremunction/Anointing of the Sick.. a sort of ladder to God for acceptance..  To me it has really made no sense for any of them other than a wish for a blessing or a promise to another being created by the creator...
Baptism= Blessing and a naming (christening)
Confession= accepting responsibility for your misdeeds..
Communion= a connection to Christ and a sharing with fellow beings.. (breaking of bread)
Confirmation= Ahh the big one  you are supposed to willingly confirm your belief in Christs and his teachings and become a soldier for Christ (hence the slap on the cheek in the ceremony to show your courage to fight... yet in the Catholic church it is given at an age of much upheaval in a young persons life.. when their mind is fraught with a myriad of emotions hormones questions.. and most agree out of purposed duty .. what others think they should do.. and being adolescents they cave to the will of their parents..
Marriage= hmm well not everyone marries so does that mean they do not get the blessings afforded those that do?/ how about those that marry and find themselves in a vile situation.. and divorce . do the blessings get rescinded??
Holy Orders= hmm another one for the ELITE.. more blessings upon them instead of those who you would think would need them more yeah??
Anointing of the Sick= (nice change from anointing of the dead or dying huh?) yet another blessing that supposedly if you do not receive you will not go to heaven no matter how you have lived your life..
Now in each of those the ONLY one I see as a REAL way for a person to become a CHristian is CONFIRMATION.. and then only when it is done of free will and with the knowledge needed to make their choice ... Ahh you say that Confirmation IS Baptism of the Holy Spirit...a way that the Holy Spirit changes you.. but unless you want the change anyway, it will not happen right? its not something that just HAPPENS when you get baptized.. right?? But that can be obtained by choosing to live a life following the teachings of all the great masters..an enlightenment , an awakening, becoming one with the world , a spiritual what have you...being baptized in the Christian faith is not the only way to achieve this... yet it is claimed unless you bend to their beliefs you are doomed to be excluded from heaven.. how silly.. 
bap·tism (bptzm)
n.
1. A religious sacrament marked by the symbolic application of water to the head or immersion of the body into water and resulting in admission of the recipient into the community of Christians.
2. A ceremony, trial, or experience by which one is initiated, purified, or given a name. ^ nothing more than a man made ceremony..
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| Oct 29 @ 1:34 PM |
The Christian becomes a new creation at Baptism
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Jankia
Posts: 11,880
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Baptism is for repentance and forgiveness of sin, new birth, and the entry into Christian discipleship which is also a symbol of God taking the initiative towards them and Confirmation is a profession of faith to confirm their Baptism.
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| Oct 29 @ 1:38 PM |
The Christian becomes a new creation at Baptism |
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beckyiv42000
Posts: 14,576
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Baptism is for repentance and forgiveness of sin, new birth, and the entry into Christian discipleship which is also a symbol of God taking the initiative towards them and Confirmation is a profession of faith to confirm their Baptism. Still can t see how a BABY can first off NEED forgiveness of sin.. and second how they can enter into something as important as a religion (you need free choice to do that ) 
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| Oct 29 @ 1:45 PM |
The Christian becomes a new creation at Baptism
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CPUfan
Posts: 7,983
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Becks I guess it means the baptised baby is forgiven in advance for all the sins of thought, word, deed and omission s/he is going to commit when s/he grows secular genitals. 
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| Oct 29 @ 1:52 PM |
The Christian becomes a new creation at Baptism |
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kattsmeow
Posts: 22,624
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How many of you have been to a Baptism of a baby? Not in the Catholic church though. I haven't been to one of them.
When my oldest Grandson was baptized in the Methodist church, it was aimed at the parents and the people in the church.
It was a responsibilty to the parents, and other Methodists to be there when the child was in need, and to raise the child believing in Jesus, and to teach the child ther ways of God. It had nothing to do with sin...
Now, being Baptized in what I was brought up to believe is a show only. A show of my faith in Jesus. I do not believe we must be baptized to get into heaven.
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| Oct 29 @ 2:23 PM |
The Christian becomes a new creation at Baptism
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CPUfan
Posts: 7,983
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I was baptised in the same Methodist church my parents got married in, Katt.
My son was baptised in the Lutheran Jesuskirken in Valby, Copenhagen - the "Carlsberg Church"... There's a monopoly Lutheran State Church in Denmark and only 3% of the population are Catholics. 
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| Oct 29 @ 3:56 PM |
The Christian becomes a new creation at Baptism |
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Angel54214
Posts: 18,167
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Question: "Why was Jesus baptized? Why was Jesus' baptism important?"
Answer: When Jesus came to John to be baptized, John asked the same question. Why should he, a sinful man, baptize the Messiah? He tried to prevent Jesus from being baptized saying “I need to be baptized by You and You are coming to me?” (Matthew 3:14). The baptisms that John performed symbolized repentance, and he saw this as inappropriate for the One he knew to be the spotless Lamb of God. Jesus replied that it should be done because “it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness” (Matthew 3:15). Christ was here identifying Himself with sinners. He will ultimately bear their sins; His perfect righteousness will be imputed to them (2 Corinthians 5:21). Therefore, this act of baptism was a necessary part of the righteousness He secured for sinners. His was a perfect righteousness in that He fulfilled all the requirements of the Law which we, for whose sin He would exchange His righteousness, are not capable of fulfilling. He is our perfect substitute.
This baptism was a very public one and was recorded for all generations to know about and understand, and it is important for several reasons. First, it pictures His death and resurrection. Second, it symbolizes the believer’s identification with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection. Third, it marks His first public identification with those whose sins He would bear. Fourth, the event was a public affirmation of His Messiahship by the testimony that came directly from heaven (Matthew 3:17).
Water baptism is used as a way to identify. In Jesus’ day, when a Gentile would convert to Judaism, he would have to be publicly baptized to identify him as a convert. Obviously, Jesus was not converting to anything. Jesus’ baptism was an identification of Jesus with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Jesus was baptized to publicly announce Himself as God’s Son, and to pronounce the beginning of His ministry with the Holy Spirit’s power. Jesus did not “need” the Holy Spirit. However, to set an example for us, Jesus emptied Himself (Philippians 2:7) and relied upon the Holy Spirit’s power. Jesus' baptism and reliance upon the Holy Spirit is an example that we are to follow in our own lives. http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-baptized.html
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| Oct 29 @ 4:09 PM |
The Christian becomes a new creation at Baptism
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ColdinWisconsin
Posts: 9,987
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How many of you have been to a Baptism of a baby? Not in the Catholic church though. I haven't been to one of them.
I WAS at a Catholic baptism. For my own child. I had to do it to fulfill a promise (obligation) to Catholic Social Services. To say they had me by the proverbial balls would be putting it mildly.
It revolved around our promise as parents to ...
1.Raise her Catholic
2. Have her be batized, confirmed, the whole shebang.
It was basically a contract that as they spilled water over my daughters head, I was being forced to make a pact with this church and it's beliefs in order for my child to get into heaven.
I have kept my promise to Catholic social Services all these years. Not because it's the right thing to do (I don't believe it is) But because I gave my word and they kept theirs. I have a child. I have done it to uphold my own moral standards.
D you want the truth? The pure unmitigated truth?
I felt in many ways I was making a deal with the devil. But, as my father always said...figure out what you want, find out what it's going to cost you (mentally, physically and emotionally) and then pay the price if you find it's still worth it.
If there is a heaven, my child will get in on her own actions, words, thoughts, deeds and merit. No sprinkle of water, hand waving of crosses over her head or promises from anyone else can save her. She will be held accountable for her own choices just as I will be.
This isn't Nancy Drew folks...there is no secret in the old clock. It's you. Only you. And I feel sorry for those that can't look at themselves and do it without rituals as their safety net...cause honey you bloat and then wrinkle. The worms crawl through your flesh. The flesh sinks to the bottom of the box. Absolutely No ONE has control over your spiritual self (whatever belief system you hold) but you. You stand alone. Every piece of cheese stands alone.
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| Oct 29 @ 4:20 PM |
The Christian becomes a new creation at Baptism |
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ColdinWisconsin
Posts: 9,987
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I would like to add this...
Romans 6:3-5
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
I don't know about that folks. It sounds good and all, but it also sounds like...if I spend 40 hours a week on the golf course I will most assuredly play like Tiger Woods.
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| Oct 29 @ 4:23 PM |
The Christian becomes a new creation at Baptism
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uncrazy
Posts: 2,382
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Jankia offers...
....Baptism is for repentance and forgiveness of sin, new birth, and the entry into Christian discipleship ....
Thus the dying of Jesus needs to be activated by more ritual.
Jesus' direction that we are forgiven as we forgive others must not be true...if we do not forgive completely, we evidently can disempower the results of Jesus' death. The death was then only a partial washing away of sins.
The directions offered by Jesus are so completely missing from the creeds that support the hierarchies built on them.
Angel54's C&P offers...
...Third, it marks His first public identification with those whose sins He would bear. Fourth, the event was a public affirmation of His Messiahship by the testimony that came directly from heaven (Matthew 3:17)....
The public affirmation of Jesus's messiahship coming from heaven is a matches the announcement from the gods that Tuthmosis lll was the chosen son of the god Horus, the first inheritor of the promise God made to Abraham that his offspring would rule from the Nile to the Euphrates. The next inheritor was Cyrus the Great. Actually, this Cyrus is known more for letting the Jews return exodus to Jerusalem.
His son, Cambyses actually added Egypt to the Persian empire.
How might the Hebrews have access to the Tuthmosis lll history...a library card for the great libraries of Babylon.
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| Oct 29 @ 4:23 PM |
The Christian becomes a new creation at Baptism |
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alivenwell351
Posts: 3,005
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Still can t see how a BABY can first off NEED forgiveness of sin.. and second how they can enter into something as important as a religion (you need free choice to do that )
I could swear there's something in the bible about the sins of the father won't visit the son...or however it's worded. So unless that's just another biblical contradiction or parable and sin actually does pass on to the next in line, why WOULD a baby need forgiveness of sin??? Unless there's scripture about crapping a diaper or throwing up milk being sinful.....
I can't see baptism as anything more than just another one of those typical pomp&circumstance rituals all religions seem to be hung up on. I guess since the message is bogus, the show's necessary to get folks' attention.....
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| Oct 29 @ 4:27 PM |
The Christian becomes a new creation at Baptism
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CPUfan
Posts: 7,983
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If there is a heaven, my child will get in on her own actions, words, thoughts, deeds and merit. No sprinkle of water, hand waving of crosses over her head or promises from anyone else can save her. She will be held accountable for her own choices just as I will be. W ords O f W isdom and common sense.  
Hey you seen those Vamp movies when some schmuck holds up a cross and it doesn't work? They read and said the right things but nothing else lol... 
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| Oct 29 @ 4:28 PM |
The Christian becomes a new creation at Baptism |
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uncrazy
Posts: 2,382
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Alive:
Verse can be found to support both.
Sins of the father will be visited on his generations...
Sins of the father are not visited on his sons....
Depends on what has to be defended by the accepted truth.
Hillel, when asked to teach another the torah said, and I paraphrase, it is only about love...the rest is commentary.
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| Oct 29 @ 5:06 PM |
The Christian becomes a new creation at Baptism
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bunnybiz
Posts: 4,758
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Hey you seen those Vamp movies when some schmuck holds up a cross and it doesn't work? They read and said the right things but nothing else lol...
Surprise, it's not working run for your life. 
I was baptized as a baby in the Catholic church. Again baptized and sprinkled in United Methodist church. Again immerse in water in Church of God.
All that really counts is what really happens inside me, not the ritual. Is there a change in my attitude in loving people and am I growing to become Love? That goes for all the rituals of the church. It is not the physical but the spiritual that is greater.
CIW
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| Oct 29 @ 5:09 PM |
The Christian becomes a new creation at Baptism |
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Jankia
Posts: 11,880
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katts- When my oldest Grandson was baptized in the Methodist church, it was aimed at the parents and the people in the church.
It was a responsibilty to the parents, and other Methodists to be there when the child was in need, and to raise the child believing in Jesus, and to teach the child ther ways of God. It had nothing to do with sin...
Not acording to the Methodist doctrine katts.
uncrazy-Jesus' direction that we are forgiven as we forgive others must not be true...if we do not forgive completely, we evidently can disempower the results of Jesus' death. The death was then only a partial washing away of sins.
The directions offered by Jesus are so completely missing from the creeds that support the hierarchies built on them. Whatever...keep in mind that one needs to seek forgiveness for themselves when they falter after baptism.
The Nicene Creed:
“We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.” "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Jesus
Becky-Still can t see how a BABY can first off NEED forgiveness of sin.. All newborns are inclined to the nature of sin because of the original sin.
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| Oct 29 @ 5:34 PM |
The Christian becomes a new creation at Baptism
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 7,432
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Personally, I do not understand Baptism to be necesary for one to attain salvation.
However I do understand the act of Baptism to be functionally important in a person's walk with Christ.
Through Baptism a Believer asks for + receives the indwelling Holy Spirit. I do not believe there is any other way to become indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
The Baptized person then has the Holy Spirit living inside of them forever. Though some have re-thought their religious position since being baptized, and have decided that they'd rather go it alone--I'm not completely certain that the Holy Spirit cannot ever be completely evicted.
Daniel 4:34--"At the end of that time, I, Nebuchadnezer, raised my eyes towards heaven, and my sanity was restored. Then I praised the Most High; I honoured and glorified Him who lives forever. His dominion is an eternal dominion: His kingdom endures from generation to generation. 35--All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as He pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back His hand or say to Him: 'What have you done?'
Public Baptism also serves as a public statement declaring a person's desire to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Then others who rub shoulders with the Baptized person in the world, are able to note the changes to the person's character. (Or non-changes.)
The beliefs about infant Baptism vary. But personally I believe that the most a parent can do is to publically dedicate their child to the learning of the ways of Jesus Christ. This is also known as Baby Dedication.
Again personally, I do not believe an infant who is unable to reason, is capable of making a reasonable decision to follow Jesus--heart, mind, and soul.
They can be led there; but I believe that the actual rational decision to follow Jesus cannot come until towards the end of childhood. IMHO
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| Oct 29 @ 5:52 PM |
The Christian becomes a new creation at Baptism |
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Deborah551
Posts: 1,008
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Lutheran Jesuskirken in Valby, Copenhagen - the "Carlsberg Church"... Now that's a mouthful, CPU. Can you imagine having to tell people the church you belong to is the Lutheran Jesuskirken inValby, Cpenhagen - the "Carlsberg Church"... when someone asked where you attended church services?
The Baptized person then has the Holy Spirit living inside of them forever. Though some have re-thought their religious position since being baptized, and have decided that they'd rather go it alone--I'm not completely certain that the Holy Spirit cannot ever be completely evicted. I was baptized 3 times so I guess the holy spirit is still in me SOC.
[Edited on 10/29/2009 5:59 PM]
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