| Nov 6 @ 9:24 AM |
Sin in Heaven
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 1,092
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Sail pointed out an interesting potential contradiction (if I took it right)
Since a person is sinful, if they go to heaven, are they still sinful in heaven? If you remove their sinful nature, it still them? Or is it someone like them, with their sinful side removed.
Then Yash said this.You can become a Christian then renounce it, did not Satan do this? You can commit sins and not repent your sins before your appearance at the Pearly Gates.
Lucifer, as most of us probably agree is already immortal, and was once the favored angel, but he turned against God.
If it Lucifer was immortal and close to God, but turned against him, can that happen with humans who go to heaven?
It seems to follow that if it happened with Lucifer and 1/3 of God's angels, it could happen again.
So if someone is in the book of life, eats of the tree of life, and gains everlasting life, goes to heaven, then turns against God, what does God do?
Can't destroy them in the lake of fire, because the lake of fire can no longer kill them. Banish them out of heaven? To go where?
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| Nov 6 @ 9:46 AM |
Sin in Heaven |
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,227
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You can become a Christian then renounce it, did not Satan do this? You can commit sins and not repent your sins before your appearance at the Pearly Gates. This was in response to something Jankia said and his wording left it wide open to suggest the above.
I am not picking on Jankia he probably wishes for a delete button on some of his comment the same as I do, no one on here is perfect.
If it Lucifer was immortal and close to God, but turned against him, can that happen with humans who go to heaven? SL said something about you can earn your way into heaven by good deeds so if she is correct [  ] then that could happen to humans that go to heaven, or can it?
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| Nov 6 @ 3:10 PM |
Sin in Heaven
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southernlass
Posts: 2,211
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Wrong, Yash. I said you cannot earn your way to heaven through good deeds.
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| Nov 6 @ 4:35 PM |
Sin in Heaven |
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bunnybiz
Posts: 4,758
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Lucifer, as most of us probably agree is already immortal, and was once the favored angel, but he turned against God.
If it Lucifer was immortal and close to God, but turned against him, can that happen with humans who go to heaven?
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For you have said in your heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." (Isa. 14:-12-14).
Lucifer is a Hoax
v11
"All they shall speak and say unto thee [king of Babylon], Art thou [king of Babylon] also become weak as we? Art thou [king of Babylon] become like unto us [mere mortals and not gods from heaven]. Thy [king of Babylon] pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy [king of Babylon] viols: the worm is spread under thee [king of Babylon], and the worms cover thee [king of Babylon]. How art thou [king of Babylon] fallen from heaven, O Lucifer…"?!
Isa 14:12
(CLV) How you have fallen from the heavens! Howl, son of the dawn! You are hacked down to the earth, defeater of all nations!"
Lucifer is a Latin word that does not belong in the OT. It was mistranslated because one little tittle is missing
Isa. 13:6 eiliu Howl ye
Isa. 14:31 eili Howl
Isa. 15:2 iilil shall howl
Isa. 15:3 iilil shall howl
Isa. 16:7 iilil Howl
Isa. 16:7 iilil shall howl
Isa. 23:1 eililu Howl ye
Isa. 23:6 eililu Howl ye
Isa. 23:14 eililu Howl ye
Isa. 52:5 eililu make to howl
Isa. 65:14 eililu shall howl
Jer. 4:8 ueililu Howl
Jer. 25:34 eililu Howl
Jer. 47:2 ueill and shall howl
Jer. 48:20 eilili Howl
Jer. 48:31 ailil will I howl
Jer. 48:39 eililu They shall howl (Howl ye)
Jer. 49:3 eilili Howl (Howl ye)
Jer. 51:8 eililu howl
Ezek.30:2 eililu Howl ye
Hos. 7:14 iililu They howled
Joel 1:5 ueililu And howl
Joel 1:11 eililu howl
Joel 1:13 eililu And shall be howlings
Amos 8:1 ueililu and howl
Micah 1:8 uailile howl ye
Zeph. 1:11 aililu Howl
Zech.11:2 eill howl
Zech.11:2 eililu howl
Isa. 14:12 eill Lucifer (??)
Satan was created a murderer and sinner from the beginning. Two witness that shows satan was created that way from beginning. No falling from grace. If you have two witness then the other must be a lie.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
No sin in Heaven as all will be converted in spiritual beings over the ages. As sin means missing the mark, we will be perfect as our Father Love is. However, I believe we still will be just babes in this spiritual world.. ever growing and learning. I believe we will be us.. one in Love but yet individuals.
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| Nov 6 @ 5:13 PM |
Sin in Heaven
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 1,092
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No sin in Heaven as all will be converted in spiritual beings over the ages. As sin means missing the mark, we will be perfect as our Father Love is. However, I believe we still will be just babes in this spiritual world.. ever growing and learning. I believe we will be us.. one in Love but yet individuals. Bunny, you are a treasure.
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| Nov 6 @ 6:50 PM |
Sin in Heaven |
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southernlass
Posts: 2,211
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And of course, everyone will be miraculously saved and we'll all go to heaven and have eternal life, no matter what we've done, regardless if we believe in Jesus Christ or not. And we'll all live happily ever after through the false teachings and feel good doctrines and dogmas of this era, whereby we preach a "tickle the ears" philosophy that pleases man, who will not abide sound doctrine and the biblical.
Riiiiight.
 
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| Nov 7 @ 9:05 AM |
Sin in Heaven
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,227
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Wrong, Yash. I said you cannot earn your way to heaven through good deeds. Oh stop it SL how can I have fun with that 
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| Nov 7 @ 3:47 PM |
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 7,434
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So some here would have us believe southernlass. 
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| Nov 7 @ 9:00 PM |
Sin in Heaven
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ColdinWisconsin
Posts: 9,987
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And of course, everyone will be miraculously saved and we'll all go to heaven and have eternal life, no matter what we've done, regardless if we believe in Jesus Christ or not. And we'll all live happily ever after through the false teachings and feel good doctrines and dogmas of this era, whereby we preach a "tickle the ears" philosophy that pleases man, who will not abide sound doctrine and the biblical.
Gotta give the girl two points for that one!
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| Nov 7 @ 10:27 PM |
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 7,434
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southernlass was just reminding us of what views had been brought forward by a few other spiritually-minded people here.
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| Nov 7 @ 10:28 PM |
Sin in Heaven
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bunnybiz
Posts: 4,758
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It could be that teaching about a hell that came from the Egyptians first then the Greeks with there underworld is the false doctrine. Of course the Christian hell has been much improved -- it is even worse than the others.
I never once said that sins or the carnal nature is just winked at. Flesh and blood can not enter the kingdom of Heaven. Only spirit. Judgment is happening now on the house of God. Judgment will happen later on the world. Same judgment because it same God. Love. Everyone gives an account for the actions (thoughts, words, deeds). Few are saved through the fire. Rest are saved in the fire. They have redeeming value. Christ died for all.
Is being saved means you are made in the image of God?
I gave scriptures because the church is under the impression that satan fell from grace. This is a lie. Other thing the church believes that Adam and Eve were perfect and fell from grace. Another lie. Adam and Eve which is a parable about humanity was made weak on purpose by Creator not perfect.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity [King James Margin: "futility"], not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. It was Creator's intention they eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Why? the word tells you why - they have now become like us to know good and evil - first step accomplish on the path to being changed into His image.
You know God never said humans were good after making them.
Gen 1:27 And creating is the Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of the Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them.
Gen 1:28 And blessing them is the Elohim. And saying to them is the Elohim, "Be fruitful and increase and fill the earth, and subdue it. And sway over the fish of the sea, and over the flyer of the heavens, and over the beast, and over all the earth, and over all life moving on the land. v30 And for all land life, and for every flyer of the heavens, and for every moving animal on the land, which has in it a living soul, all green herbage is for food. And coming is it to be so. v31 And seeing is the Elohim all that He had made, and, behold, it is very good. CLV He said it later about all creation. Do know why? because humans are not yet made into the image of God which is Spirit. It is a long hard process. You have to die to self to live in spirit to become spirit.
God is in complete control. Everything is on course as is should be. God is not running damage control.
And of course, everyone will be miraculously saved and we'll all go to heaven and have eternal life, no matter what we've done, regardless if we believe in Jesus Christ or not.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Isn't that how you are saved by confessing Jesus Christ is Lord.
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| Nov 7 @ 11:08 PM |
Sin in Heaven |
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alivenwell351
Posts: 3,011
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Honest question for SOC & SL...not a slam...
Do both of you believe only your specific tunnel vision view of your religion is the right one and anyone who doesn't see it exactly your way...even if by just a little...is all wrong and doomed to eternal damnation, even if they are believers themselves, but might be more flexible, open minded, and might interpret your scripture and/or the context of it differently than you exactly seem to do??
And before someone who hangs on every heathen's word and twists and questions it jumps in, no, I don't recall seeing either of them say that in exactly specifically those words...
But the attitude of both their posts recently certainly has me wondering if that's the way they see it......
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| Nov 7 @ 11:11 PM |
Sin in Heaven
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Josuha
Posts: 1,120
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I gave scriptures because the church is under the impression that satan fell from grace.
Angels were never under 'grace'.
Grace being 'unmerited favor'..
It was Creator's intention they eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Not true.
The command was..
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
Why? the word tells you why - they have now become like us to know good and evil - first step accomplish on the path to being changed into His image.
The term 'good and evil' in this context does not mean 'good' as in the knowledge of 'good' and 'evil' as in the knowledge of 'evil'
It infers a knowledge of 'everything'.
Using opposite words was a Hebrew writers way of expressing a point of 'all'..'everything'...
As in asking a question to make a statement.
In this context, 'rebellion' against the first command.
That is, to chose obedience or rebellion..
Not as inferred by the translation, 'good' and 'evil', although one could chose good and evil by obdience or rebellion.
Man had learned 'rebellion'.
In this case, 'everything' infers 'sin'.
"you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil"
Man now had 'rebelled' or sinned.
Fallen or 'separated' from God.
If you follow this context, you will also follow the first sacrifice..
God Himself killed the first animal for skins for Adam and Eve.
As He will provide Himself the sacrifice through Christ.
You will also see the first prophecies of the Messiah..
"15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed (sin) and her Seed (Christ);
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”
A shadow of the law, sacrifice, Messiah and reconciliation.
I would go on but I have bigger fish to fry.
[Edited on 11/7/2009 11:24 PM]
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| Nov 7 @ 11:23 PM |
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Jankia
Posts: 11,892
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alive- Do both of you believe only your specific tunnel vision view of your religion is the right one and anyone who doesn't see it exactly your way...even if by just a little...is all wrong and doomed to eternal damnation, even if they are believers themselves, but might be more flexible, open minded, and might interpret your scripture and/or the context of it differently than you exactly seem to do??
I know your question was to those two but it was so darn long if I dont say anything I just wasted the commercial time during Braveheart.
If they did they are both honest enough to have told me that I was wrong and doomed myself.
Nice job on Penn St today BTW. 
[Edited on 11/7/2009 11:39 PM]
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| Nov 7 @ 11:36 PM |
Sin in Heaven
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Angel54214
Posts: 18,174
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I can understand and follow "alive's" questioning as reasonable to him because taking into consideration that after God created everything he stated that it was all very good and he blessed all the living creations; beasts, fowels, fishes and humans on the 6th day.
Jesus himself compared the human body to a seed...it is planted into the ground and dies, then the seed transforms and grows forth another life form of itself. Humans live and die...then transformed into another life form (spirit). If we read all of Jesus' words about the seed, we can understand the human creation of "all very good" from the beginning.
Gen. 1:
1 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
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| Nov 8 @ 12:50 AM |
Sin in Heaven |
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southernlass
Posts: 2,211
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Do both of you believe only your specific tunnel vision view of your religion is the right one and anyone who doesn't see it exactly your way...even if by just a little...is all wrong and doomed to eternal damnation, even if they are believers themselves, but might be more flexible, open minded, and might interpret your scripture and/or the context of it differently than you exactly seem to do??
This is a difficult question because the real answer is that it depends on the Christian and exactly what their interpretation is. I've not normally a serious problem with those Christians who don't lead others away from Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, who don't deflect away from the salvation experience, who don't twist the bible into a pretzel that I no longer recognize.
I have difficulty trusting those Christians who claim to be Christian but seem to interpret even the very words of Jesus Christ into something I don't recognize or believe He said. I know what the basics of Christianity are. I normally recognize these basics in others unless they are so completely, imo, confused that they are too far gone to realize it themselves.
Will I confront them on it? Subtly perhaps.. depending upon how much they drag non believers and the unsaved away from what Jesus Christ did for the world and why. If they pervert the message of salvation and twist, add to or take away from the word of God, it's a problem. Yes, they must be called on it then and even soundly rebuked in public if they are teaching what is clearly false. I think there are appropriate ways of doing this though and inappropriate ways of doing it. One can disagree respectfully or even with humor and still get the point across.
And before someone who hangs on every heathen's word and twists and questions it jumps in, no, I don't recall seeing either of them say that in exactly specifically those words...
But the attitude of both their posts recently certainly has me wondering if that's the way they see it......
I think Joshua in another thread brought up the following scriptures which describe my feelings on this perfectly, Alive. We have to be extremely careful right now because there are many who may appear guileless and harmless but who, even through no fault of their own, are being used by Satan to pervert God's word and the message of Jesus Christ. There's a point to this and the point is to prevent the salvation of souls and the recognization of why Jesus died, rose again, and exactly what He promises through His death on the cross.
2 Peter 2: 1-6
1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them into gloomy dungeons[b] to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.
As to those who are not Christian, who despise Christianity, I expect them to twist and pervert the bible. I'm not surprised when they do. Those who simply believe in a higher power, etc., I really don't particularly make a judgment on one way or another -- unless they are misleading people on the basics of Christianity and on what the bible clearly says.
[Edited on 11/8/2009 12:56 AM]
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| Nov 8 @ 2:29 AM |
Sin in Heaven
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Josuha
Posts: 1,120
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As to those who are not Christian, who despise Christianity, I expect them to twist and pervert the bible.
If you look at scripture closely, and follow the context, 'deception' and twisting of scripture is nothing new.
There is another attack used that is called 'doubt'..
For example..
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
Note the serpent is questioning what God said and thus putting 'doubt' into Eve.
"Has God indeed said?"
Of course the serpent knew what God said..'doubt' is an 'attack'..
Then Eve does something that we see here.
She 'adds' to the word of God and thus her own interpretaion of the command.
"2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”
God actually said..
“Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Eve added to the word of God through pride.
Another thing Eve did was 'upsurp' authority.
God never commanded Eve, God commanded Adam.
The garden and the command was given to Adam and Eve wished to upsurp the authority she did not have.
Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Then the serpent suggests 'rebellion' against God's command and attacks God's intent..
"4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
The attack by false teachers are first 'doubt'
Then suggesting 'rebellion' against what scripture says.
Then upsurping authority of God or scripture.
Then 'adding' to the word of God'
It is nothing new.
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| Nov 8 @ 3:07 AM |
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southernlass
Posts: 2,211
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Wow.. you clarified that very well, Joshua. Thank you. I've never quite thought of it that way before. And I definitely didn't recognize all of the subtle ways of a false teacher to decieve. I'm taking notes!
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| Nov 8 @ 3:19 AM |
Sin in Heaven
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Angel54214
Posts: 18,174
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Thanks Josh...that was excellent!
As we follow through to Eve...
vs. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes and a tree to be desired to make one wise she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat.
We can see that this desire, was not mentioned by the serpent. This was Eve's desire of wisdom. For no tree can contain evil or make one wise in itself or if its bearing fruit, she obtained her own desireable thought as an excuse to disobedience of the command given to Adam from God himself, which Adam followed suit in the disobedience.
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| Nov 8 @ 9:33 AM |
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ServantOfChrist2
Posts: 7,434
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Of course I don't believe that already at this relatively young age I have all the answers alivenwell.
Humility is always reminding me that my religious views will constantly be undergoing alteration all of my life. It is the fool who believes his, (or her), understanding of religion will never change.
But the Bible will remain the Word of God to me always. This will never change.
My belief in His supreme authority will never change. He will always be in control of my life.
I will always worship Him. 
But of course, the assorted beliefs I have with the religion of Christianity will change some as the years go by. That's one of the remarkable things about the Bible.
Even after reading the same passage 10-20 times, the next time you read a familiar passage, something else might leap off the page at you, completely changing the concept you had lived with for many years before. You'll suddenly notice a word that you had skipped over before.
But the Bible will never stop being a Guidebook for living to me.
I will never replace God as the One to whom I owe my existence.
Thanks alive.
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