| Sep 20, 2008 @ 1:26 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,267
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StarGazer you are in serious need in reading 101 as well as Physics 101.
A Atom has mass and energy and can be split. But yet it is not the smallest atomic particle known to man. The human form is 70% empty space that human eye cannot perceive that because of the excitation of the atoms vibration on our skin which makes us perceive one another as a solid. But we are not because we out gas via our skin both water and vapor all the time.
When our bodies decompose it is really that the atoms that make us up no longer has energy to maintain the bodies form to hold the various atoms groupings together.[B]I never said that Atoms have consciousness maybe someone else did I do not know.
My reference to atoms being reused after the body decomposes to become something other or many somethings others points to the fact that we as humans create many things from mother earth's residue.
So in fact the residue of atoms from our mortal bodies can get reused the atoms that form us as energy cannot be destroyed as energy they can only change their state.
BTW wise guy I got my degree IN Physics in 1963 then went on a paid vacation to Vietnam. I spent several decades as a research scientist both here and abroad. I have a Masters and two Doctorate degrees. What do you have? 
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| Sep 20, 2008 @ 1:31 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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16knots
Posts: 3,627
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People who negate possibilities negate "awareness" and that is sad. Quantum Mechanics try to explain many phenomena and often they say electrons seem to have a mind of their own  The most common lay experiment that dumbfounds is the wave-particle nature of elections in the Young's Slit Experiment.
The fact is to say the cosmos isnt alive as to say something is inanimate is absurd. There is not one thing in the cosmos that is not "alive".
And who is to say it doesnt have consciousness. What is the fabric is consciousness?
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| Sep 20, 2008 @ 1:50 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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16knots
Posts: 3,627
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A human being is a part of this whole, called by us ‘Universe’, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest — a kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to apportion for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. — Albert Einstein
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| Sep 20, 2008 @ 1:50 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,267
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The problem IMHO only with attributing consciousness to energy is that in the world of human kind they equate consciousness to mortal mind. And you are not speaking about that defined form of consciousness at all are you?
Someone reads the idiots guide to physics then expounds on physics pretending that he knows about physics like this fool just did.
You cannot equate the word alive to a fool because a fool only equates alive to himself as the only definition of alive.
Few things are more intimidating to the non-scientist than modern physics. Even an educated person has difficulty comprehending the most basic claims made about the entities and possible entities of the sub-atomic world, not to mention the exotic claims about entities and possible entities at the edges of the universe. Even the concepts of "sub-atomic" and "edge of the universe" boggle the mind. Perhaps it is because of the obscurity and inaccessibility of modern physics that many uneducated people scoff at science and find solace in fundamentalist religious interpretations of the origin and nature of the universe.
Another response to the seemingly transcendental nature of concepts in modern physics has been to interpret those concepts in terms of ancient metaphysical doctrines popular for thousands of years in exotic places (to the Western mind) such as India and China. This notion of a "harmony" between ancient metaphysics and modern physics is attractive to those who accept science and reject the Christian sects they were raised in, but still have spiritual longings. Believing in this notion of "harmony" between the ancient East and the modern West has the virtue of allowing one to avoid appearing to be an imbecile who rejects science in order to accept religion. As such, it shares in common at least once trait with "scientific creationism": it re-creates science in its own image for its own purposes. Science is the handmaiden of Religion and Metaphysics, as Philosophy had been for Theology in the Middle Ages. StarGazers theory of what is-is reminds me of this!
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| Sep 20, 2008 @ 2:39 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,267
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In Quantum Physics they have arrived at a point where they have concluded that to drill down in the sub-atomic world any farther the Western concept of exploration but looking at the smallest component which makes up things and to then look at each larger component until you have a picture of what makes something to determine how it works is no longer a valid approach as we can not see things that small. Conversely in the Eastern approach of looking at things as a holistic whole to form a hypothesis of how something works is the only thing we have in Quantum Physics to work with now because we have surpassed equipments ability to see or work with these smallest particles.
Capra, a researcher into theoretical high energy physics (quantum theory) who has also studied Eastern religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Zen and Chinese thought) compares the similarities of current thinking as to atomic theory, energy and universe with the teachings of the great Eastern seers and mystics, as revealed in their religions via meditation. As a physicist, he describes:
· The dual nature of light (or, more generally, electromagnetic radiation) - wave/particle
· Newton's mechanical model of the universe - 3 dimension space of Euclidean geometry. "Absolute, true, and mathematical time, of itself and by its own nature, flows uniformly, without regard for anything external." Gravity held everything in place as per God's plan.
· Special theory of relativity - (Einstein - 1905) - 3 dimension time and space are not separate entities but are intimately connected and form a 4 dimensional space-time continuum. From this comes the realization that mass is nothing but a form of energy (an object at rest has energy stored in its mass. E=mc2)
· General theory of relativity (Einstein - 1915) - extended the 'special' theory to incl. gravity (the mutual attraction of all large bodies) and is used in astrophysics and cosmology for the description of the universe at large. In this theory, the force of gravity has the effect of 'curving' space and time. 3 dimensional space is actually curved, as a result of massive body gravity. Time slows for an object approaching the speed of light. Light bends, attracted by gravity.
· Quantum theory (Max Plank - 1905) - theory of atomic phenomena studies the arrangement of atoms, which turn out to consist of relatively vast regions of space in which extremely small particles, the electrons, move around the nucleus, bound to it by electric forces. (The # of electrons in the atoms of an element determine its chemical properties. The periodic table of elements can be built up by adding protons and neutrons (electrons) to the nucleus of the lightest atom - hydrogen). Quanta are the bursts of energy packets transmitting heat radiation. Light quanta are called photons, and are particles of a special kind, mass-less and always traveling at speed of light (186,000 m/s). The interaction between negatively charged electrons and positively charged atomic nuclei is the basis for all matter, life and biological processes.
· S matrix theory (S = scatter) describes the world of subatomic particles as a dynamic network of “events” (hadrons) and emphasizes change and transformation rather than fundamental structures or entities. Under the S-matrix theory (which is not accepted by all physicists), being holistic and dynamic, particles are seen as interrelated energy patterns in an ongoing universal process - as correlations, or interconnections between various parts of an inseparable cosmic web. There are no distinct entities and no Newtonian building blocks; there is only a flow of energy showing certain well-defined patterns. (This ties in with Eastern thought (Buddhist) where all things are seen as dynamic, impermanent and illusory).
· The hadron bootstrap hypothesis - a philosophy of nature and theory of particles deriving from S-matrix concepts (Geoffrey Chew). This hypothesis rejects Newton's universe constructed from a set of basic entities with certain fundamental properties, which had been created by God and thus were not amenable to further analysis. In Chew's concept, the universe is seen as a dynamic web of interrelated events. None of the web properties are fundamental - they rather flow from the properties of the other parts, and the overall consistency of their mutual interrelations determines the structure of the entire web. It also abandons fundamental laws, equations and principles (derived from the belief in a divine lawgiver). Physicists are coming to see that all their theories of natural phenomena ("laws") are creations of the human mind; properties of our conceptual map of reality rather than reality itself, and that scientific theories and models are approximations of the true nature of things. All theories and laws are mutable, destined to be replaced by more accurate laws when the theories are improved. Step by step, as theories improve and increase in accuracy, we will 'bootstrap' toward (but maybe never reach) the ideal answers. The hypothesis, in that it does not rest on or within a framework, is considered unscientific (it leads beyond science).
(The world-view of the Eastern mystics shares with bootstrap not only an emphasis on the mutual interrelationship and self-consistency of all phenomena, but also the denial of fundamental constituents of matter).
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| Sep 20, 2008 @ 3:05 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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waterfire
Posts: 2,946
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Oh dear such ignorance!!! There isnt belief necessary. You "believe" and yet others know. State of fact. Western religions are generally faith based, the dessert religions whereas eastern philosophies are not faith based.
naa, is is a belief bud but lets say it does happen, what use does it have...wait we have gone this route before  ...believe what you want 
Waterfire has his hangups and it seems you have too but I can wear it for awhile, no probs
too funny 
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| Sep 20, 2008 @ 3:25 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,267
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Waterfire your last post was too funny do you understand the word nonsense as your post made no sense to me, but then maybe you did not want it to.
Let me try this for you if this was what you were talking about?
Western Religions better known as Monotheism are Mystical in their belief systems because what the put forth a mystical being defined as God but with a lot of differing labels between monotheists religions.
Eastern Religions are isolated as Religions to the Hindu Religion and Shintoism. Other than that there is no mysticism to be found under the heading Eastern Mysticism because Buddhism and Taoism [Dao Chia] are Living Philosophies not religions.
I lived in Asia for almost two decades and I speak from direct experience not just from reading.
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| Sep 20, 2008 @ 3:32 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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16knots
Posts: 3,627
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Yash, they read a comic book in a national library and there experience is sitting in the lobby instead of world travel and exploration.
However, maybe stargazer and waterfire will go learn something of faith based and non-faith based systems.
I dunno......
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| Sep 20, 2008 @ 4:26 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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waterfire
Posts: 2,946
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Waterfire your last post was too funny do you understand the word nonsense as your post made no sense to me, but then maybe you did not want it to.
Naa, I had no need to rehash reincarnation with knots so just dropped it and yes it was intentional.
Eastern Religions are isolated as Religions to the Hindu Religion and Shintoism. Other than that there is no mysticism to be found under the heading Eastern Mysticism because Buddhism and Taoism [Dao Chia] are Living Philosophies not religions.
Simply put... yes I know all (most?) prefer to say a "Living Philosophy" but I still view it as a religion, heck do a little research and you will find that a lot of Christians have jumped on this band wagon and now say that Christianity is not a religion.In the long run to me is does not matter what it is called but what a person gets out of their chosen belief system/practice.
Yes I am sure your perspective is unique and I have never lived in say India but have known many people (Mahatmas included) from there and have found that what is offered was not for me.
Yes I know the internal journey is THE journey but I do not need the rites, rituals or habitual thinking eastern or western religions have.Yes I do go inside daily, drink, feel that inborn clarity/pureness of what we all have inside us and know for me it is what I want.
I have to ask why you are practicing a eastern religion (or for that matter any)?
What do you get from it? Is it because at one point you felt that "this is true" or was it mostly out of curiosity or did it just stimulate your mind?
What did you originally hope for?
Oh forgot to say that I liked your post on quantum physics (so much so I have a few pages bookmarked) , very clear! ...thanks
[Edited on 9/20/2008 4:36 PM]
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| Sep 20, 2008 @ 4:55 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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StarGazer
Posts: 40
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A Atom has mass and energy and can be split. But yet it is not the smallest atomic particle known to man.
Yashaenka, I know that and also what comprises an atom and never said anything to the contrary.
In my initial post I did say
Yes the body is composed of atoms but these atoms that make up a human body (and the body of any living thing) are the non=living building blocks of cells I was addressing your statement that the atoms that make up the mortal body do not die.
By that statement you were implying that an atom is a living thing
My point is that atoms are not living because they fail to fulfill the criteria for being living things
A better way to say it is that atoms continue to exist and are recycled which is obvious.
Some become part of bacteria that feed upon the decomposing body, or part of insects or part of plants or just part of the earth.
I never said that Atoms have consciousness maybe someone else did I do not know.
That is correct, you never said that, it was Knotts that has said that on more than one occasion, however if you believe atoms are alive then you are implying it.
Few things are more intimidating to the non-scientist than modern physics. Even an educated person has difficulty comprehending the most basic claims made about the entities and possible entities of the sub-atomic world, not to mention the exotic claims about entities and possible entities at the edges of the universe. Even the concepts of "sub-atomic" and "edge of the universe" boggle the mind. Perhaps it is because of the obscurity and inaccessibility of modern physics that many uneducated people scoff at science and find solace in fundamentalist religious interpretations of the origin and nature of the universe.
Another response to the seemingly transcendental nature of concepts in modern physics has been to interpret those concepts in terms of ancient metaphysical doctrines popular for thousands of years in exotic places (to the Western mind) such as India and China. This notion of a "harmony" between ancient metaphysics and modern physics is attractive to those who accept science and reject the Christian sects they were raised in, but still have spiritual longings. Believing in this notion of "harmony" between the ancient East and the modern West has the virtue of allowing one to avoid appearing to be an imbecile who rejects science in order to accept religion. As such, it shares in common at least once trait with "scientific creationism": it re-creates science in its own image for its own purposes. Science is the handmaiden of Religion and Metaphysics, as Philosophy had been for Theology in the Middle Ages.
StarGazers theory of what is-is reminds me of this!
I have never once made any reference to my beliefs or lack of, may I ask where this is coming from ?
Knotts you said
The fact is to say the cosmos isnt alive as to say something is inanimate is absurd. There is not one thing in the cosmos that is not "alive".
YOU MUST BE JOKING !!!! 
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| Sep 20, 2008 @ 6:10 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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16knots
Posts: 3,627
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Stagazer. No I am not joking.
Name one thing that isnt alive?
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| Sep 20, 2008 @ 6:17 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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16knots
Posts: 3,627
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Waterfire:
Simply put... yes I know all (most?) prefer to say a "Living Philosophy" but I still view it as a religion, heck do a little research and you will find that a lot of Christians have jumped on this band wagon and now say that Christianity is not a religion.In the long run to me is does not matter what it is called but what a person gets out of their chosen belief system/practice.
Never heard of any christian saying Christianity is not a religion. There is a distinct definition to "religion" and "philosophy." Didnt you know that 
Yes I am sure your perspective is unique and I have never lived in say India but have known many people (Mahatmas included) from there and have found that what is offered was not for me.
Excellent~!!! But, it shouldn't allow you to say "nay."
pssstttt, many of my relatives are Indian Im an Anglo-Indian.
Yes I know the internal journey is THE journey but I do not need the rites, rituals or habitual thinking eastern or western religions have.Yes I do go inside daily, drink, feel that inborn clarity/pureness of what we all have inside us and know for me it is what I want.
Good for you but it doesnt give you the "knowledge" to say those "eastern" religions and philosophies are wrong as you seem to do constantly. And accuse of those who have studied, practiced and lived those philosophies through life times.
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| Sep 20, 2008 @ 6:29 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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Empath
Posts: 5,288
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Name one thing that isnt alive?
Careful, Knotty, you're setting yourself up with the burden of proof to an argumentative, close-minded audience.
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| Sep 20, 2008 @ 6:58 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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ceecee1952
Posts: 153
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"Good for you but it doesnt give you the "knowledge" to say those "eastern" religions and philosophies are wrong..."
I do not proclaim to know but wish to comment from my outside view. This may be a little disjointed since I have only read the end portion of this thread.
We live in a diverse world. With varied religious traditions it is important to recognize both similarities and differences to develop a respect for the traditions of others. I have traveled to China frequently visiting sacred buddhist practises and even Dunhuang Caves. After studying many world religions, I seperate them in my mind to those that have a creator. (Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Christianity) from the nontheistic (Buddhism, Jainism and others I do not know)
To say that one religion is right and another is wrong is so limiting in understanding and thought. No matter how strong an argument is made or how right one thinks ones view is... if it is not in the framework of the listener to hear, they wont hear it. As a teacher I have found with non-understanding students that it must then be expressed in another way. With openness we can hear more and grow more.
I love Goedel's mathematical proof:
The following statement is true.
The previous statement is false.
I will loop these thoughts back in now and see what 11th dimension they take people on this thread to.
(just waving in on this...all the best, cc)
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| Sep 20, 2008 @ 7:08 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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Empath
Posts: 5,288
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Welcome, Ceecee. Great post!
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| Sep 20, 2008 @ 7:22 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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16knots
Posts: 3,627
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Em
ceecee,
from the nontheistic (Buddhism, Jainism and others I do not know)
Thats good for you but you really need to take Buddhism out of there. It isnt nontheistic in truth.
To say that one religion is right and another is wrong is so limiting in understanding and thought. No matter how strong an argument is made or how right one thinks ones view is...
Religions are like that sure enough and hence personally I take the philosophies where truth is at hand if one so wishes to seek it.
Didn't you come across the Four Noble Truths and hence forth proceeded???
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| Sep 20, 2008 @ 7:58 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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StarGazer
Posts: 40
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Stagazer. No I am not joking.
Name one thing that isnt alive?
Hmmmm let's see which should I mention? a grain of sand, a gold nugget, a chunk of iron, a stone, asbestos, salt, need I go on?
Oh, by the way Knotts, your fellow scientist, Yashaenka, does not agree with your belief that atom have consciousness, seeing that he made it a point to deny that he ever said such a thing. 
Yashaenka said..............
I never said that Atoms have consciousness maybe someone else did I do not know.
[Edited on 9/20/2008 8:08 PM]
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| Sep 20, 2008 @ 8:27 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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16knots
Posts: 3,627
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stargazer:
Hmmmm let's see which should I mention? a grain of sand, a gold nugget, a chunk of iron, a stone, asbestos, salt, need I go on?
No. I only asked for one thing but anyone will do nicely. Yash made it quite clear how you perceive these things. But lets go over it again in a less scientific way so you can understand.
Have you ever heard the expression, "Form is emptiness and emptiness is form?" Have you heard of Sunyata?
Take a grain of sand... what is it exactly?
It doesnt have inherent existence. On analysis it is a combination of properties. break them down further and we cay it is made up of parts. Take a part we can say it is made of molecules which in itself are made of atoms with atomic parts then we go to sub-atomic and just keep breaking down to what?
The grain of sand had long gone.
At what stage is there a consciousness present or not present?
Take a human being and break that person down to what? The same components. We can get down to the same atomic particles. Where is consciousness present or not. What happened?
So where is your consciousness?
Oh, by the way Knotts, your fellow scientist, Yashaenka, does not agree with your belief that atom have consciousness, seeing that he made it a point to deny that he ever said such a thing.
Yash has his own mind and free thinks his way through life 
Did you really read what he said??? You certainly didnt understand it at all else you would not have made the above statement which is incorrect.
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| Sep 20, 2008 @ 8:31 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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ceecee1952
Posts: 153
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Thanks Em!
16knots,
The categorizing is just a way to look at differentiating the foundations.
Some will talk of the existence of a creator I categorized the others as nontheistic. This term is sticky depending on when it is used with the word god or used with the idea of a creator.
I think, although, we are on the same page about this.
Another way is to look at creator based vs. philosophy based and that may be better language for understanding.
Didn't you come across the Four Noble Truths and hence forth proceeded??? yes, i am at this time i am actually trying to understand the implicit meaning of the heart sutra
Stargzer:
Atomic physics might place rocks as alive. Others would say that animals and plants are alive.
But all change over time and when broken down have the same chemical compositions.
(of course my bass playing "rock star son" would say Rock Lives! -joke)
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| Sep 20, 2008 @ 8:46 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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16knots
Posts: 3,627
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ceecee, this is the difference between religionists and philosophists when one can seek truth whilst the other can only have faith. The same old... same old...
People tend to say, "your BELIEF" or "your FAITH" or your system is this or that.
They get is so wrong. When speaking of Buddhism and its purity in teachings one doesnt have blind faith or a belief. It is treading a way forward into awareness of truth of what we are and where we are in the whole scheme of things.
Each step can be a realisation to the truths hence why buddhism begins with Four Noble Truths as yourself is aware off.
For other people who think in terms of faiths and beliefs they really have to start to analyse and gain truths from the start and grow from that as we all do. Eventually the bigger picture unfolds into wisdom beyond the ordinary. "Insight wisdom" touch a chord with you
Philosophies such as Buddhism are only tools to help us discover absolute truths and leave behind the faiths and belief systems.
Is it noticeable that Buddhism in these discussion forums rarely rely on scriptures and Sutra quotes? When the truths are realised there is no need of scripture as realsation isnt escapable from mind and hence transmitted with ease.
just thoughts
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