| Sep 20, 2008 @ 9:19 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
|
|
waterfire
Posts: 2,946
|
Good for you but it doesnt give you the "knowledge" to say those "eastern" religions and philosophies are wrong as you seem to do constantly. And accuse of those who have studied, practiced and lived those philosophies through life times.
Not true at all knots. I have said I really do not care what another practices. 9 times out of 10 you are the one who will come along and tell another that what they practice is wrong, always wanting to lead them to the practice you follow. I do applaud you for your persistence but this is not sharing but demanding.
As far as your claim that you have lived "through life times" ( it cant be proven only claimed) so what!!! We have discussed reincarnation (the reason I find the belief of it a non issue in this LIFE) and you found my view acceptable...well at least that was your reply.
I really do not care about a debate on this point or that, to me it just take time away from what can be shared. I mean at some point one has to see that you are wrong and i am right  ..naa just joking (cough) 
Anyway cool, I am glad you enjoy what you practice (do you?)and really hope your heart opens or remains open 
[Edited on 9/20/2008 9:28 PM]
|
|
  |
|
| Sep 20, 2008 @ 9:33 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
|
16knots
Posts: 3,627
|
Not true at all knots. I have said I really do not care what another practices.
You are quite clearly the one who is "  " and stating I dont know this or that and dont practice but read books and various insults. 
9 times out of 10 you are the one who will come along and tell another that what they practice is wrong, always wanting to lead them down the practice you follow.
Oh, if that is true then you know what I practice. What is it? My point is debate on issues accordingly, regardless of practice. I dont know if you are a Christian Catholic, Methodist, Hindu, Sikh or Uncle Wilmar Hacksaw's side kick, neither do I care.
I do applaud you for your persistence but this is not sharing but demanding.
Too much of a joke at this point. I rationalise thinking and dont demand anything from you. Simply because you do not and can not understand me at this time. I cant expound vector analysis and wave probabilities of quantum particules because you wont understand and it goes with higher levels of metaphysics. Do you grasp Sunyata?
As far as your claim that you have lived "through life times" so what!!! We have discussed reincarnation (the reason I find the belief of it a non issue in this LIFE) and you found my view acceptable...well at least that was your reply.
Actually you insulted me. Go back and read what you posted. But, I see here you have changed your stance a little from a absolute negation to a non-acceptance. Is that progression 
I really do not care about the debate on this point or that, to me it just take time away from what can be shared. I mean at some point one has to see that you are wrong and i am right ..naa just joking (cough)
This IS your constant stance as you portray even if you joking (cough). If it didnt really matter you would simply leave it alone. You brought it up instaed of leaving it dead. 
Anyway cool, I am glad you enjoy what you practice (do you?)and really hope your heart opens or remains open
How would you know about that? Either way?
Like I have said butterflies and sunny meadows. Does it make sense to you when people state something isnt true, or it is wrong yet dont understand the basics and argue with someone with greater knowledges is that being unaware of those knowledges? Isnt that ignorance? "Closed mindedness?"
|
| |
|
| Sep 20, 2008 @ 9:42 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
|
|
waterfire
Posts: 2,946
|
leaving it dead
I am good at physics , I stop when i run into a wall . I had to say this to Bev once because like you it is a endless cycle of posts that goes nowhere so I bid you ado 
Oh, I think you and Bev would make a great couple, you bot have the same mindset 
[Edited on 9/20/2008 9:44 PM]
|
|
| |
|
| Sep 20, 2008 @ 9:44 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
|
16knots
Posts: 3,627
|
So you mean your Ego got the best of you?
|
| |
|
| Sep 21, 2008 @ 10:49 AM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
|
|
StarGazer
Posts: 40
|
Thought I heard it all Knotts, and then I come across you, the "scientist" of the modern world who thinks and says that a rock or a grain of sand is a living thing with consciousness or a soul or whatever word you chose to call it
Once I came across and read something that a student wrote in an exam. It read..........We believe that the reptiles came from the amphibians by spontaneous generation and study of rocks.
Might that be you that wrote that
or maybe you are Aristotle philosopher reincarnated but stuck in his times when it was believed that frogs are created from muddy soil, and flies from rotting meat
(for the record I do not believe in reincarnation, which has not been proven to my satisfaction)
Hopefully in your next life you are Spallanzani or Pasteur reincarnated
Oh might I add, I too am good at physics and stop when I hit a brick wall
[Edited on 9/21/2008 10:57 AM]
[Edited on 9/21/2008 10:58 AM]
[Edited on 9/21/2008 10:59 AM]
|
|
| |
|
| Sep 21, 2008 @ 10:59 AM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
|
16knots
Posts: 3,627
|
Stargazer, instead of all the ignorant insults try acting like a lady and read what I wrote and answer the questions?
stargazer:
Hmmmm let's see which should I mention? a grain of sand, a gold nugget, a chunk of iron, a stone, asbestos, salt, need I go on?
No. I only asked for one thing but anyone will do nicely. Yash made it quite clear how you perceive these things. But lets go over it again in a less scientific way so you can understand.
Have you ever heard the expression, "Form is emptiness and emptiness is form?" Have you heard of Sunyata?
Take a grain of sand... what is it exactly?
It doesnt have inherent existence. On analysis it is a combination of properties. break them down further and we cay it is made up of parts. Take a part we can say it is made of molecules which in itself are made of atoms with atomic parts then we go to sub-atomic and just keep breaking down to what?
The grain of sand had long gone.
At what stage is there a consciousness present or not present?
Take a human being and break that person down to what? The same components. We can get down to the same atomic particles. Where is consciousness present or not. What happened?
So where is your consciousness?
Oh, by the way Knotts, your fellow scientist, Yashaenka, does not agree with your belief that atom have consciousness, seeing that he made it a point to deny that he ever said such a thing.
Yash has his own mind and free thinks his way through life
Did you really read what he said??? You certainly didnt understand it at all else you would not have made the above statement which is incorrect.
I highlighted the question marks for you to make it easier.
No wonder the education standards are so low!
|
| |
|
| Sep 21, 2008 @ 11:09 AM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
|
|
16knots
Posts: 3,627
|
Stargazer:
Thought I heard it all Knotts, and then I come across you, the "scientist" of the modern world who thinks and says that a rock or a grain of sand is a living thing with consciousness or a soul or whatever word you chose to call it
What IS consciousness exaclty? What is "soul"? Do you know the difference? Guess not! *sigh and you argue black is white and white is black!
Once I came across and read something that a student wrote in an exam. It read..........We believe that the reptiles came from the amphibians by spontaneous generation and study of rocks.
So what is your excuse?
Might that be you that wrote that
Not me. But if you wish to discuss Causations???
or maybe you are Aristotle philosopher reincarnated but stuck in his times when it was believed that frogs are created from muddy soil, and flies from rotting meat
Actually Aristotle was a great man of his time but we moved on. Unfortunately, some people dont, do you?
(for the record I do not believe in reincarnation, which has not been proven to my satisfaction)
Good for you but it doesnt give you the right to denounce half of the planet that do and with good reason, experience and rational thinking.
Hopefully in your next life you are Spallanzani or Pasteur reincarnated
I dont see what bio-chemistry has to do with anything here. You show your ignorance.
Oh might I add, I too am good at physics and stop when I hit a brick wall
Thus far you havent shown an inkling of understanding the basics.  Someone how professes scientific knowledge lack a great deal of fore thought.
I'll give you an F for trying. AT least you manage to put your name on the paper.... hey wait a minute, it was system generated
|
|
| |
|
| Sep 21, 2008 @ 11:13 AM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
|
StarGazer
Posts: 40
|
Knotts, my discussion has been purely scientific in nature so please leave your Buddhist philosophy out of it...I have no interest in discusing Buddhism or any other philosophies or any other religions with you or anyone,.All I have been debating with you is the scientific definition of living vs non-living
So please stay on topic
|
| |
|
| Sep 21, 2008 @ 11:19 AM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
|
|
ColdinWisconsin
Posts: 9,987
|
But wait a minute here. Stop and read the Original post. That is what we are here to discuss!
I'm not taking sides at all, just tryng to point out that the OP made some interesting comments that DO require further discussin into our indivdual beliefs.
|
|
| |
|
| Sep 21, 2008 @ 11:19 AM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
|
BandTMom
Posts: 38,063
|
From Wiki:
Metaphysics is the branch of philosophy investigating principles of reality transcending those of any particular science. Cosmology and ontology are traditional branches of metaphysics. It is concerned with explaining the ultimate nature of being and the world.[1]
The word derives from the Greek words µet? (metá) (meaning "beyond" or "after") and f?s??? (physiká) (meaning "physical"), "physical" referring to those works on matter by Aristotle in antiquity. The prefix meta- ("beyond") was attached to the chapters in Aristotle's work that physically followed after the chapters on "physics", in posthumously edited collections. Aristotle called some of the subjects treated there "first philosophy"
A central branch of metaphysics is ontology, the investigation into what types of things there are in the world and what relations these things bear to one another. The metaphysician also attempts to clarify the notions by which people understand the world, including existence, objecthood, property, space, time, causality, and possibility.
More recently, the term "metaphysics" has also been employed by non-philosophers to refer to "subjects that are beyond the physical world". A "metaphysical bookstore", for instance, does not sell books on ontology, but rather one that sells esoteric books on spirits, faith healing, crystal power, occultism, and other such topics which the philosophic pursuit of metaphysics generally does not include.
Before the development of modern science, scientific questions were addressed as a part of metaphysics known as "natural philosophy"; the term "science" itself meant "knowledge". The scientific method, however, made natural philosophy an empirical and experimental activity unlike the rest of philosophy, and by the end of the eighteenth century it had begun to be called "science" in order to distinguish it from philosophy. Thereafter, metaphysics became the philosophical enquiry of a non-empirical character into the nature of existence. Thus the original situation of metaphysics being integral with (Aristotelian) physics and science, has, in the West, become reversed so that scientists generally consider metaphysics antithetical to the empirical sciences.
Thus a discussion in pure science would be off topic to this thread.
|
| |
|
| Sep 21, 2008 @ 11:21 AM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
|
|
16knots
Posts: 3,627
|
Stargazer, what a Cop out~!!!
No Buddhism involved. Just pure logic or take it to pure scientific reasoning.
You have no grounds what-so-ever.
May I suggest you try a pry open your closed mindedness and just be aware of the greater aspects of life! 
So please stay on topic
Oh I have but not under YOUR controls~!!!
|
|
| |
|
| Sep 21, 2008 @ 11:28 AM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
|
StarGazer
Posts: 40
|
Actually Aristotle was a great man of his time but we moved on
Yes he was and most everyone has moved on except those like you who think rocks are living things
Good for you but it doesnt give you the right to denounce half of the planet that do and with good reason, experience and rational thinking. I never denounced anything, all I said is I will not believe in something that still has holes in it, if and when proven without any doubt then I will believe in it
I dont see what bio-chemistry has to do with anything here. You show your ignorance. Maybe you need a refresher course on their work
|
| |
|
| Sep 21, 2008 @ 11:40 AM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
|
|
16knots
Posts: 3,627
|
Yes he was and most everyone has moved on except those like you who think rocks are living things
You have yet to prove that is so????
I never denounced anything, all I said is I will not believe in something that still has holes in it, if and when proven without any doubt then I will believe in it
You just did~! 
I dont see what bio-chemistry has to do with anything here. You show your ignorance. Maybe you need a refresher course on their work
What is biochemistry dear???? You work with molecules and groupings of molecules. So where is that consciousness within them you keep denying?
Where is it?
Please tell us where is consciousness?
You seem to have all the answers so please do us a favour enlighten us.... the show is yours......
|
|
| |
|
| Sep 21, 2008 @ 11:40 AM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
|
StarGazer
Posts: 40
|
Have you ever heard the expression, "Form is emptiness and emptiness is form?" Have you heard of Sunyata?
Stargazer, what a Cop out~!!!
No Buddhism involved. Just pure logic or take it to pure scientific reasoning.
Is Sunyata not a word in Buddhist philosopy? and answer me this what does Sunyata have to do with the topic at hand,,,, ie living vs non-living
|
| |
|
| Sep 21, 2008 @ 11:41 AM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
|
|
Empath
Posts: 5,288
|
Enough is enough. Have your debate, we all enjoy the differing opinions, and the information gleaned therein; However, I have tired of the insults and condescension and lack of respect shown by some of the posters. I am certain others have as well.
So please stay on topic
The topic of this thread is metaphysics.....not science, nor religion, or lack thereof.... though I do believe one day they will meet. If we stand on opposite sides of the discussion, fine.....but state your knowledge, or belief, and leave your opinion of the other posters to email or yourself.
Em 
|
|
| |
|
| Sep 21, 2008 @ 12:00 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
|
16knots
Posts: 3,627
|
Stargazer:
Is Sunyata not a word in Buddhist philosopy? and answer me this what does Sunyata have to do with the topic at hand,,,, ie living vs non-living
Go back to the first part and answer the question with an answer and not a question please.
Then, we have something to discuss.
You can then start to define, (with logic) what we perceive as life, what is its true nature.
Thus far you have avoided every argument of topic denouncing "this" or "that" yet haven't grasped anything from its basics. How can anyone discuss with someone with such an attitude
Already, you denounce atoms, items being "living" yet you can not state what is and where is consciousness.
You try to throw off with a lot of insult and reference to "biologists" yet you do not consider the breakdown of the body into its constitute parts which are exactly the same as any other item in the cosmos. So, my leading you to Sunyata is purely an exercise in alternative thinking where we might consider that everything with its physical nature has what? Consciousness? Non-consciousness? What is it? Where is it?
Try thinking beyond the "closed box" and open to alternative possibilities. Then it may lead you into knowledges you may never have thought possible before simply because you were not aware of them.
|
| |
|
| Sep 21, 2008 @ 12:03 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
|
|
StarGazer
Posts: 40
|
[QUOTE]What is biochemistry dear???? You work with molecules and groupings of molecules. So where is that consciousness within them you keep denying?
If you read my first post to Yash, I questioned his statement that our consciousness dies when our body dies. He went on to say that the body does not die since the atoms that the body is composed of don't die. Well biologically speaking an atom is not classified as a living thing because it does not meet all the criteria. I went on to say that there is no proof that our consciousness dies. I never denied consciousness. What happens to this consciousness when we die, I don't know. Where is this consciousness. Possibly in certain atoms that make up the body. The point I was trying to make is that once the body dies and eventually breaks down to the individual atoms, these atoms of H and N etc are just that with no consciousness. One can guess this or that but the bottom line its just that... a guess
|
|
| |
|
| Sep 21, 2008 @ 12:36 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
|
StarGazer
Posts: 40
|
Thus a discussion in pure science would be off topic to this thread.
I agree with you Mom 
It was Yash's statement that the body does not die because the atom lives but the consciousness dies that prompted me to post, and comment on that atatement.
|
| |
|
| Sep 21, 2008 @ 12:37 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
|
|
16knots
Posts: 3,627
|
Well, it is better to acknowledge that "possibly" inanimate objects have consciousness. That would be the truth other than to say inanimate objects dont contain consciousness.
Certainly science doesn't know.
Now, bringing into the argument "Buddhism" wasn't to bring in "religion" I personally leave religion to the religionist unless they want to ague "religion" with me and I have a disdain for religion. It is a useful tool for somethings but highly lacks truth.
Buddhism isnt a religion but only by part, its logic, and philosophy has had no argument with science especially these days when discussing quantum mechanics and possibilities. Sadly, people jump on the religion band-wagon when mentioning Buddhism and talk of faith, beliefs, etc. My only reason to bring it into thediscussion is because its logic and philosophies bring insight into the nature of things here.
To understand Sunyata is exceptional thinking because not many people "get it".
The cosmos is a cauldron full of matter-energy. Matter is energy, energy is matter scientists argue but I would consider it is only matter when we perceive it as so with our own physical senses and instruments otherwise it is a distinct energy.
Energy that seems to shape and form into larger groupings of itself. Hence further grouping producing what we term inanimate objects. But where is this consciousness???
At what level does it kick in or does everything have consciousness? Certainly a grain of sand is a living object when we consider its condition.... a mass of vibrating energies-particles bonded together under "causes" to produce a something. Human beings and all life is a combination of energies-particles to produce a something.
Of course we are far more complex and evolved as science has it from mounting causations. We act and respond in certain ways because we have complex organs to perceive better than most. It gives us the perception of conscious thinking. So this doesn't negate the possibilities that all matter-energies have consciousness. Just because a grain of sand doesnt have complex organs and act behaviorally as we do demonstrates no consciousness.
The argument for matter with Consciousness can be beaten to death but the fact is whatever we can do matter can do only with the right combinations. e.g. matter has memory. Quantum particles have diverse realities, travel backwards and forwards and makes their own decisions hence we cant find them when we want to yet they always end up where we send them.
Much can be said but the point is, there is a greater argument for matter having consciousness. The only way to progress beyond this thinking is through analysis of the nature of the universe itself.
Everything, even so called consciousness, spirit, soul is an act of causations. One thing coming into being with following consequences bring in another series of causes and so forth. The cause of consciousness i would argue is no different than the cause of the cosmos itself and through rational thinking everything within the cosmos has consciousness inclusive anything labeled inanimate.
|
|
| |
|
| Sep 21, 2008 @ 12:40 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
|
16knots
Posts: 3,627
|
Thus a discussion in pure science would be off topic to this thread.
pffftttt.....
The topic of this thread is metaphysics.....not science, nor religion, or lack thereof..
pffftttt.....
You can not discuss metaphysics without science and religion.
Pure science and religion is a great asset to metaphysics. They are indicators, points of reference, et cetera.... et cetera.....
An argument no matter how heated can bring out the best in people....
|
| |
|
|
|
|