| Sep 21, 2008 @ 12:48 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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waterfire
Posts: 2,946
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The thing that sustains the universe sustains us which means all things are interconnected.
Knowing this I wonder if this is why others feel on one level or another that everything has some sort of consciousness. 
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| Sep 21, 2008 @ 1:01 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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Empath
Posts: 5,288
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Pure science and religion is a great asset to metaphysics Sure, but they can be obstacles as well, depending on the openness of the speaker.
The topic of this thread is metaphysics.....not science, nor religion, or lack thereof.. pffftttt.....
EDITED TO ADD:
"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."
-Albert Einstein
...I really shouldn't post in such a hurry. 
[Edited on 9/21/2008 1:10 PM]
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| Sep 21, 2008 @ 1:07 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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16knots
Posts: 3,627
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Waterfire,
Its the part of Sunyata, everything is interconnected and nothing is inherently independent and existing, that is everything has empty nature, which gives rise that everything has consciousness.
***
In the greater Kunjed Gyalpo, the primordial essence, not only of our known cosmos but literally everything that IS regardless, is primordial consciousness.
This has a profound effect on thinking when considering our own minds true nature is this consciousness. At the level of this thread this can bring aspects of how all the psychic phenomenas come into being.
With this consciousness, our true mind nature, the non-conceptual consciousness, we can grasp how mediums can tap in, how people astral travel, how many "skills" occur. Allbeit, most psychics can only "tap-in" whereas Masters go way beyond.
This also brings in meditation, a fast route to understanding and opening in awareness to the non-conceptual mind and able to remember past lives and do all the psychic stuff. (I dont mean the every day stuff you hear about either.) 
Basically one grows into awareness of this primordial consciousness and during the process it uncovers much knowledges and skills. Buddhists call psychic phenomena and abilities as the "Skills". You will probably find references to it on the web. Buddhists are forbidden to discuss it as it leads to negative consequences along their paths and those of others.
Point is "primordial consciousness gives rise to phenomena, origination of causes that lead to us becoming what we are, a grain of sand and anything else in the universe.
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| Sep 21, 2008 @ 1:18 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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StarGazer
Posts: 40
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Well, it is better to acknowledge that "possibly" inanimate objects have consciousness. That would be the truth other than to say inanimate objects dont contain consciousness.
Knotts I never said that
Please read carefully...I said
Possibly in certain atoms that make up the body. The point I was trying to make is that once the body dies and eventually breaks down to the individual atoms, these atoms of H and N etc are just that with no consciousness
I said consciousness possibly resides in atoms (of the living body) or just in empty spaces within the body, these would be atoms that make up a living thing such as a cell, perhaps a nerve cell. However, once this cell dies and breaks down into atoms, this consciousness is gone. They are just atoms, atoms of oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium, and phosphorus.that are recycled. Some become part of bacteria, some become part of insects, some become part of plants, some simply become part of the soil.
Seems to me you miss-understood
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| Sep 21, 2008 @ 1:20 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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waterfire
Posts: 2,946
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Interesting Knots
This has a profound effect on thinking when considering our own minds true nature is this consciousness. At the level of this thread this can bring aspects of how all the psychic phenomenas come into being.
I have never read the Sunyata but have always felt/sensed this because I have noticed in my life when I am in tune with that internal vib my so called psychic abilities are sharper/come into play ....hmmm wondering if when in tune I just notice them!!
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| Sep 21, 2008 @ 1:57 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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16knots
Posts: 3,627
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Stagazer,
which atoms?
Would you be discriminating between atoms, rocks aren't allowed to have the same atoms as humans????  I'll report you to the Atomic Racial Board 
Does "Children of the stars" hit a chord with you?
Waterfire,
when considering all that exists as primordial consciousness it answers many questions that we "sense" to know, as I believe you do.
When our own mind as it is now opens to the higher levels we lift a veil of ignorance to a greater awareness. Many times I speak of the five senses and we only use these to know our condition. Mostly everything we do and know is through these physical, worldly senses giving us a false approach to reality. Sometimes that little sixth sense, but when understanding this is ploys of the ordinary mind to veil over our true nature the aspect of us that is non-conceptual thinking, non-distinguishing between objects and subjects we open to the nature of this primordial consciousness..... We can have an opportunity to glimpse a deeper reality, a true reality and an abiding nature of mind which is primordial awareness, luminous wisdom which all phenomena arise. Analyse how wisdom arises, it isnt knowledge. Knowledge is just knowledge but something arises that brings wisdom to use knowledge. All part of this primordial consciousness.
Compassion is part of its nature too.
Looking at the human condition we can easily see in a greater consciousness it is wisdom that arises, compassion that emanates.
Considering psychic ability.....
let me put this to you for thought.
Knowing anothers mind.... that is empathetically one consciousness being with another.
Astral travel, a movement of consciousness through time and space.
Birth and death, transfer of consciousness.
Reincarnation, transfer of consciousness.
Seeing the future, consciousness over space and time.
and the list goes on.
Consciousness, its place and its time are what we get when everything is melted down. However, time and space are man made concepts. There is a whole basis for this and a discussion another time. Point is we have consciousness that we can relate too.... and that is our mind. Through analysing our mind, training the mind and realising truths, we open a whole new brilliant world and leave this relative, veiled reality of ours behind.
Sorry, I didnt mean to yack on so much but only trying to come full circle to original thoughts.
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| Sep 21, 2008 @ 2:45 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,236
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My you guys have been busy but I think it is still a good exchange although you have differences that is ok also.
I went back a couple pages and will try to address some key issues that may clarify some things for you about where I am coming from and to an extent where 16 is coming from to understand what alive is to him.
First I am not a Buddhist in any Institutional way although some of what the Buddha put forth rings true to me. I do not subscribe to mysticism such as a personal God by any name, I am reality based. I classify myself as a Zen Tao Chias't. Zen to me is a tool and Philosophical Taoism is but a way to live harmoniously in the here and not.
I think 16's version of Alive is meant to say he views all things and all that there is, and is not are permeated with the energy of the Cosmos that has a life of it's own. Concepts of us mortal men thinks as life or being alive in reference to us as humans. But in reality we just do not know how many life forms there are, do we. We have the same concepts about a creator, life and death, black and white, good and bad.
Well as humans who express their selves with Linguistics that is a closed system we are limited in expressing ourselves with words within that same closed system
I do not care how far the atoms of a decaying body break down energy is energy that lives on yet it can change it's state of being and that energy may find it's way into something other even if it is a car or food we as humans ingest. That is what I meant that even in death we get recycled and yes we lose our consciousness when die we are no longer us but the mortal body itself can be recycled.
Energy is as energy does we have no concept as yet how much energy we are bombarded with we only know what we know and can measure and see within the limits of equipment. But if we can assume energy in some form or differing forms permeates everything than it permeates us also.
Our True Nature is naught but this, the concepts of Chi, Ki, Hara, Spirit, Soul, even Holy Ghost are but conceptual labels describing the same thing although we just do not know what form of energy that is, it is energy all the same.
In my mind the only form of Buddhism that is a Religion is called Protestant Mahayana Buddhism and they created for themselves Zen Buddhism. For 16 the form of Mahayana I will call the old and ancient form is not a Religion. It is just that modern day Mahayana in some places [non Tantric] has modeled itself after Christianity to reach outward to the largest audience, but for 16 that is not true Mahayana.
If I missed clarify some conceptual statements I made you disagreed with ask me to clarify please. To a Original Zennist and Taoist there is no life or death it is a circle but not a reincarnation circle. That is because of conceptual differences between what one accepts as the real you. Your life force as energy or your mortal body.
16 ad I have gone round and round over institutional Buddhism beyond the Buddha's core teachings to which I personal do not subscribe but we have met in the middle and realize each of us has a right to embrace what rings true to us individually. For a Tao Chis't we do not accept Life is Suffering, to us that represent the attitude of India, where the people of China and other nations our optimist and I am a optimist so I take the Buddha's teaching about this with a grain of salt. But his other core teaching are very familiar with a Taoist approach to life and living.
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| Sep 21, 2008 @ 3:31 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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waterfire
Posts: 2,946
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We can have an opportunity to glimpse a deeper reality, a true reality and an abiding nature of mind which is primordial awareness, luminous wisdom which all phenomena arise. Analyse how wisdom arises, it isnt knowledge. Knowledge is just knowledge but something arises that brings wisdom to use knowledge. All part of this primordial consciousness.
Compassion is part of its nature too.
Looking at the human condition we can easily see in a greater consciousness it is wisdom that arises, compassion that emanates.
This is the core of what I experience in my life and is what I call the path of life.
For a Tao Chis't we do not accept Life is Suffering, to us that represent the attitude of India, where the people of China and other nations our optimist and I am a optimist so I take the Buddha's teaching about this with a grain of salt. But his other core teaching are very familiar with a Taoist approach to life and living.
I feel much the same, I get inspired when I feel/see what this Life for the living has to offer, to know self and feel one does not have to suffer in order to grow.
Again, I care more what a person understands than what they believe/follow, I mean does it matter if one uses stick, a lighter or matches to ignite ?...to me no, the flame and what it brings is the point of it all.
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| Sep 21, 2008 @ 3:40 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,236
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This is a Metaphysics thread and to pay honor to it let us say a Living Philosophy or Living Belief system that has no mysticism in it as Religions do and looks at Metaphysics from the perspective that all is energy [in some form] and energy is all. For without energy we simply would not exist nor would the cosmos by any stretch of the imagination except in the minds that buy into mystical man made concepts of what is-is.
Now in my review of the past pages it was quite clear a lot of the differences stem from Man Made Concepts not scientifically proved facts. A Concept is a concept and we as humans every since we were born have been stuffed full of man made conceptual isms from the outside in.
The Past and/or the Future are but man made Concepts that simply do not exist in the true living reality of our lives. Zen per se is neither a religion nor a philosophy, it is only a tool that aids us to see truth as it actually exist sans Concepts.
So the word alive in the man made concepts of man [which is a closed system] really has nothing to say outside of itself when someone puts forth a view of alive or consciousness that is outside of man made Concepts as it relates to man.
All of our Science is based on man made Concepts from which hypothesis are created and a Scientist tries to prove it is so based on what he/she know today but as we know as we gain more facts, things change.
Trying to define alive or consciousness outside man made concepts is hard to do with a man made Linguistics system man designed. 
If one considers Energy as being alive because , it exist, therefore it is, one could say hmm maybe that is so to an open minded person. But if a person must cling to mans concepts because he is attached to them, then they would not accept Energy as being alive. It is just a matter of perspective. I think [IMHO] the same applies to Consciousness, it is a matter of perspective. Although I know it is almost impossible to describe it with our closed system of Linguistics and Concepts.
I/we use Zen to help us let false concepts dissolve on their own in the way any person of science would try to replace Concepts with truth if we can and if we can truly the truth shall set us free from false concepts.
I think Waterfire, StarGazer, 16 and I at this point have all proved to be more deep than initially thought by expressing our point of views.
To tell you the truth it is a joy to have a conversation on here where Blind Faith alone does not ruin the conversation. 16 at least they have thought of these things and have pursued and sought more knowledge to find their own truth inside as it rings true to them.
Remember this is a discussion not a Blind Faith argument. 
[Edited on 9/21/2008 3:45 PM]
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| Sep 21, 2008 @ 3:42 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,236
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Again, I care more what a person understands than what they believe/follow, I mean does it matter if one uses stick, a lighter or matches to ignite ?...to me no, the flame and what it brings is the point of it all. Beautifully profound and nicely stated. 
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| Sep 21, 2008 @ 3:48 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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Red69Sun
Posts: 1,102
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Just pausing life for a momment............to say hello to one and all here! It's been a while....and I do miss interacting with you........fun people. I guess we all have to refocus at times and realize what is important and interesting in our lives!
Hang in there all and enjoy!
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| Sep 21, 2008 @ 4:00 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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16knots
Posts: 3,627
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Red 
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| Sep 21, 2008 @ 6:58 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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Empath
Posts: 5,288
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Red, honey!!! Sure have missed you!!!
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| Sep 21, 2008 @ 8:39 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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Red69Sun
Posts: 1,102
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I've missed you guys (and gals) too........you all make me smile........and chuckle at times.
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| Sep 21, 2008 @ 8:41 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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Red69Sun
Posts: 1,102
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Any suggestions on how to get un-plugged......getting the Third Eye 6th Chakra cleared out......and functional again???? 
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| Sep 21, 2008 @ 11:43 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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ceecee1952
Posts: 153
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perhaps it is that we define metaphysics itself differently?
http://websyte.com/alan/metamul.htm
I agree that all things are interconnected.
and then ask us to define consciousness as well ?
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| Sep 23, 2008 @ 8:06 AM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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waterfire
Posts: 2,946
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HI Red good to see ya
I vaguely remember what the charkas are but since it is a internal thing I would imagine that you know what to do.
To me it would be just a thing of getting back in touch, setting priorities which includes my internal growth...I mean we are what we eat so sit down and enjoy a meal of YOU
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| Sep 23, 2008 @ 9:13 AM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,236
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Any suggestions on how to get un-plugged......getting the Third Eye 6th Chakra cleared out......and functional again??
Zen is: The unsymbolization of the world and all things in it. Concepts of mankind are naught but symbols posing as truths but on closer observation their is no truth to be found.
Although differing practices point to one returning to the Instance of your birth in order to see clearly what really is done [or should be] Is the Emptying of Adulthood.
I said earlier we are stuffed with Concepts from outside from the instance of birth But I should have added then as adults we ourselves form our own concepts their by adding concepts to concepts.
Whether you are viewing with your 3rd Chakra, or your eyes and senses from the inside out what you see is what you see unless of course you have found truths sufficient to replace your conceptualizations of what it is and is not. Truth will cause a Concept to dissolve. Concepts are like a deck of cards that you built a house with once you eliminate one the others are less supported and they collapse from their own weight.
If you try to see using your conscious mind alone well then unless you void false Concepts from it what you will see is concepts that you got from outside and you created from inside as well. Some say we have two minds our Conscious mind [with a sub conscious] and a Intuitive mind as well that is not part of conscious that has no Concepts only truths within it.
If you can turn off you conscious mind and use your Intuitive mind when viewing things well then you have a great pair of glasses.
It is great to see this thread somewhat active again. Recently there have been arguments put forth centering around such things as: ALIVE and CONSCIOUSNESS.
If you put forth anything about them using man made Concepts you are being closed to seeing others perspectives. But then being Alive or having CONSCIOUSNESS sans man made Concepts requires putting forth either concepts derived from outside or self generated from the inside even if you do not use man made concepts from the outside doesn't it.
For me I look at Energy as being Alive for all things stem from it, even us.
Earlier in a discussion I said I do not know if the Atoms of the body when it decomposes and the atoms are recycled has any Consciousness simply because any form of consciousness they might have would be foreign to our form of what we call our consciousness. How do I deny the existence of something beyond the realm of my ability to know? 
[Edited on 9/23/2008 9:29 AM]
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| Sep 23, 2008 @ 9:35 AM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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StarGazer
Posts: 40
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Again, I care more what a person understands than what they believe/follow, I mean does it matter if one uses stick, a lighter or matches to ignite ?...to me no, the flame and what it brings is the point of it all.
Beautifully put Waterfire 
I feel the same way
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| Sep 23, 2008 @ 10:42 AM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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waterfire
Posts: 2,946
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Whether you are viewing with your 3rd Chakra, or your eyes and senses from the inside out what you see is what you see unless of course you have found truths sufficient to replace your conceptualizations of what it is and is not. Truth will cause a Concept to dissolve. Concepts are like a deck of cards that you built a house with once you eliminate one the others are less supported and they collapse from their own weight.
Wow Intense, in a good way
Hmm, makes me wonder why we need to find something to replace instead of just letting go and just accepting what we are!
[Edited on 9/23/2008 10:57 AM]
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