| Sep 23, 2008 @ 11:37 AM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,236
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I have read many things  and studied differing concepts around the world via Direct Experience [I lived in Asia for almost 2 decades] and I have found this to be True for me.
It is useless to chase a Awakening or Enlightenment, the more you chase it the farther away from you it becomes.
You cannot throw away Concepts either, from mind. not really, yet there are some who say you can. But you can force the mind of it's own volition to discard concepts by replacing then with a verifiable truth. Then mind will discard a Concept, dissolve it so to speak without any effort on your part.
For me an Awakening and Enlightenment are two different sides of the same coin. You become Awakening by accepting your True Nature and it is only then you can embark on the never ending pathway to Enlightenment. It is never ending because our existence is temporal.
If we find a real truth it is easy to let go but if we do not how do we let go of a concept without replacing it someway because then we would have nothing to use for the something the Concept tried to explain.
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| Sep 23, 2008 @ 12:27 PM |
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Empath
Posts: 5,288
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Hmm, makes me wonder why we need to find something to replace instead of just letting go and just accepting what we are!
we would have nothing to use for the something the Concept tried to explain Isn't part of the problem that we feel the need to explain, rather than just accept, as Waterfire indicates?
you can force the mind of it's own volition to discard concepts Are these words not opposites?
...not poking holes...just things that jumped out at me...
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| Sep 23, 2008 @ 12:44 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,236
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Are these words not opposites? No but the way it is written I see how you can think so.
you can force the mind of it's own volition to discard concepts It depends on who controls mind you or your mind on automatic pilot.
If you derive a truth from within you or find it outside of you then ponder it and find that the premise and the conclusion are true, you can then say to your mind replace this concept with this truth I know to be true.
It never ceases to amaze me the mind games we need to play with our own mind to discard man made concepts that we know to be false. Maybe it is a nature of the beast [mind] that once it has some tid bit of information it guards it and hates to discard anything. Maybe the mind holds onto things like a junk collector who thinks that some time in the future it may become valuable.
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| Sep 23, 2008 @ 1:22 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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16knots
Posts: 3,627
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One of the very reasons I spent decades coming to my own point now and support the tradition I follow knowing it to be the quickest way to enlightenment which in buddhist concepts is the incorrect term used for Awakened, is that it gets to the root of the problem of concepts.
Yes, we can entirely escape concepts. Many Masters do and also Karmic forces.
The tradition looks at the root of concepts as they arise in the mind. Their very nature or if you like their very essence/energy is pure. A concept arises from mind. Where else? No where else and hence recognising their arisings in the mind and non-clinging has no effect on us to conceptualise thinking.
The reason this is a quick path to Awaking is because there isnt the messing about trying to understand what is being told, why, when and anything else. This isnt the same as allowing thoughts arise and letting go off them. It is recognising thoughts come from a pure source of the mind and nothing else.
Chakras.... are a system to make sense of spiritual phenomena related to the physical body. e.g. take into consideration Tummo practice where body heat rises dramatically because one visualises essences and "wind" traveling through pathways from one chakra to another.
"Knots" and I dont mean 16knots  are also associated with the chakras. Being able to visualise certain aspects of spiritual happenings along the chakra system allows the physical body to change.
Most part it is a very dangerous practice other than by having a true teacher to develop a student in its ways. The practices have always been kept in secrecy. Playing around with chakras can have good or bad effects to spiritual and physical development.
Tummo Meditation
This form of meditation as they are calling it is actually visualisation techniques with changing the state of chakras.
[Edited on 9/23/2008 1:28 PM]
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| Sep 23, 2008 @ 1:41 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,236
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Free Chakra test
One of the very reasons I spent decades coming to my own point now and support the tradition I follow knowing it to be the quickest way to enlightenment which in buddhist concepts is the incorrect term used for Awakened, is that it gets to the root of the problem of concepts. This is why I am very careful when I use the terms Awakening and Enlightenment so we do not step on one another.
In Zen Tao Chia we use Zen as a tool to do the same but others later when Ch'an was created also created the forms of Quick way and Slow way that Zen Buddhism created as two differing sects. But I know you in your quich way are not referring to this.
Yet in actual fact I think there is no quick way or short cut to an Awakening or Enlightenment because you can not find it by pursuing it, it comes unbidden in it's own good time. But yes I think there is a long way and a shorter way to assist Concepts to dissolve on there own.
It all starts regardless of our approach by accepting concepts are just concepts.....
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| Sep 23, 2008 @ 4:48 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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ceecee1952
Posts: 153
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I like that concepts are just concepts. 
hi yash and all,
nice to hear your voice on here again
ty all for your thoughts-
gonna throw a few thoughts out here - (like a pitcher in a baseball game)
concepts are not in existence except in our mind,so one might ask what about when a concept transforms into actuality...takes physical form so to speak?
For example in my design course the concept of a point or line or plane in space takes form when it is positioned as a dot on the drawing page taking on other attributes size shape form length direction etc.
does not interdependence take that too- to be devoid of intrinsic existence?
I dont think we have a discreet moment of consciousness, it is a stream and internal like a concept not a substantial reality.
my guess is the response to this might be  I hope I am not a thread-stopper here 
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| Sep 24, 2008 @ 8:56 AM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,236
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concepts are not in existence except in our mind,so one might ask what about when a concept transforms into actuality...takes physical form so to speak? Hi C, This is a Concept
I am not sure your words are correct as written. A concept is really a assumption you or another make about a something whether it has form or not. A concept is not something that has been proved to be True otherwise it would not be a concept.
Of course scientist do not use concept as a word they call them a hypothesis, theorem, scientific model et al.
To form a Concept there must be a subject that the concept will be about but there are concepts about things to small to see in Quantum Physics for example. So does a something have physical form if we cannot see it or measure it?
Then to a concept may be a mystical assumption such as a personal God that stands outside of all there is and is not with no form to be found ever.
A concept can form from own thoughts or enter from outside via another's opinion. So Concepts have a dual source people tend to think that all Concepts come from the outside on Forums like this. To me a Concept is an opinion either mine or some else's.
For example the word Ego which in reality does not exist inside of us the only place Ego exist is outside of us in other peoples opinion in our culture is a concept embedded in our way of thinking we assume that concept to be true. Ego is something that has no form to be found inside of us but outside of us people give it a form to express a response to the way we act, talk, write etc.
All of us assume much verify little about the world of concepts especially the popular concepts via Common Wisdom. The Ego is one of those.
I dont think we have a discreet moment of consciousness, it is a stream and internal like a concept not a substantial reality. We in reality have no reality nor consciousness outside of each instant. There is no past or future that exist in reality those are just concepts that never have life and existence of their own except in our minds.
So the only real existence we have is a instant Now from one instant Now to the next that are more like slides instead of moving pictures that happens so swiftly we just think it is in constant motion like a moving picture. Yet a movie is just still shots that move at a frequency adjusted for our eyes that appears as a movie.
They above are ways to help your mind dissolve concepts by challenging a concept as a truism when there is no truth to be found you can tell your mind you no longer have need of it and let dissolve from mind as a belief.
[Edited on 9/24/2008 9:11 AM]
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| Sep 25, 2008 @ 12:13 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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ceecee1952
Posts: 153
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would you then think of consciousness as a concept?
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| Sep 25, 2008 @ 12:19 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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16knots
Posts: 3,627
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As a thought it would be.
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| Sep 25, 2008 @ 12:34 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,236
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would you then think of consciousness as a concept? I agree with 16 on this as he stated above.
If you can define consciousness for a mortal as a mortal as a concept why then cannot every thing that exist have a consciousness as a concept. If you just use humankind as your baseline then thinking outside the box is stifled.
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| Sep 25, 2008 @ 9:12 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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ceecee1952
Posts: 153
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you just use humankind as your baseline then thinking outside the box is stifled make a bigger box. (smile)
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| Sep 25, 2008 @ 11:52 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,236
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| Oct 3, 2008 @ 10:10 AM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,236
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Here is one for 16 that is making a bigger box so to speak.
Is our Consciousness something we define and embrace from within us assuming we can find Consciousness with our mortal minds and separate Consciousness from our unconscious.
Or is Consciousness found by us only from outside of us? as some think we possess the ability to stand outside of ourselves to view what is there impartially.
This is not a trick question it comes from an essay I reviewed not long ago that puts forth the idea that our consciousness can only be found outside of us and they were not referring to concepts.
What do you think...
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| Oct 3, 2008 @ 12:02 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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16knots
Posts: 3,627
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...what do I think.
It doesnt exist. (Bottomline)
There is no consciousness to be viewed, to be found, to be embraced to be anything. This is the self-consciousness.
The reason I say this as you probably know is that inherently nothing exists and no concepts exist within themselves. This is probably easy for us to understand to a degree. However, even I have difficulty to get my head around it because although nothing inherently exists, there is form. Everything has form where our sense organs perceive and our sense consciousnesses register to our ordinary mind.
Alas, when taking a holistic view of all then we find what we perceive as form still doesnt exist but the making of our minds. In simplistic terms we create what we are and that includes our world. We are here due to our own conditionings.
Labelling a something as consciousness, that cognitive perception we have is okay to a point but if we wish to find the truth behind it then we must look deeper. Way deeper than our contemporary psychologists can fathom. Look at our own consciousness, what is it?
A thought arises from what? One moment we sit there and the next a thought arises but again from what? Nothing there. It arises from nothing we can see, perceive, think about. Where does a thought die too? Same again, nothing.
This we call consciousness? What is consciousness, its nature...... "Nothingness." Its condition is nothingness. No amount of thinking, conceptualising will make something from nothing. Hence consciousness is a condition of Nothingness.
Doesnt matter if one tries to define consciousness from within or without or anything else. Its nature is Emptiness.
Profound... huh? 
Alas, so much for "self" consciousness, our illusions. Having negated this self-consciousness doesn't mean there isn't a primordial consciousness. Looking at this primordial consciousness should reflect that everything that we think exists inherently is pure in nature with primordial consciousness. It isnt easy to explain but....
Look at the cosmos as a primordial soup of energy and remembering energy and matter are inter related. Everything we tend to recognise is a something created in form from this primordial soup, similar to shapes forming in clouds of smoke. Everything we know comes into being, born, forms into something, grows old and dies, disperse back into whence it came.
This primordial consciousness creates forms in this primordial soup as a continual process of creation. Constant movement.
Each form has an essence, a nature and has an energy. These are often called three wisdoms. Three aspects of primordial consciousness that further divide into aspects that we can see within ourselves. But the point is individually we dont have self-consciousness in truth, it doesnt exist but what we do have is a primordial consciousness that creates the whole cosmos.
Some would call this a God or something else, but these type notions should be dropped. These are just further distractions from truth.
The whole point is getting to understand what is behind the way the cosmos works, how we work and how we relate in reference to any abilities we may have.
For example, people who believe in having para-normal skills, believe they are seperate entities that read the conditions of others which isnt really true no matter how it seems. There isnt a separate consciousness of one inter-acting with another. We arent separate. We are all interconnected, as we have said before and hence if you wish to know or help another then look within yourself.
Using crystals, props, and all manner of gizmoes distracts from the truths. Look at the masters, Jesus for example, Buddha or Padmashambava, none ever used props to heal. Hell, all they ever had so it is said, a robe, pair of sandals and they were doing all manner of good things. See the point? People are so wrapped up in "New Age" it sucks from the truths.
Does it make sense?
Okay, I dont expect every one to agree with me but it would open interesting debate.
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| Oct 3, 2008 @ 12:41 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,236
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Yes your take on this is very profound. I am not sure how many will get it but it is there to contemplate on.
Is your use of Nothingness as applied here they same nothingness we use that is not nothing [such as the void] it has something other in it too?
Alas, so much for "self" consciousness, our illusions. Having negated this self-consciousness doesn't mean there isn't a primordial consciousness. Looking at this primordial consciousness should reflect that everything that we think exists inherently is pure in nature with primordial consciousness. It isnt easy to explain but... You and I agree on this but I think others will get lost when you point to primordial consciousness.
Would I be right too say everything which has energy has consciousness as we discussed in another thread which others are still scratching their head over. [I do not wish to put words in your mouth] Alas if everything is one and connect primordial consciousness is a form of universal consciousness or do I miss read your intent.
Each form has an essence, a nature and has an energy. These are often called three wisdoms. Three aspects of primordial consciousness that further divide into aspects that we can see within ourselves. But the point is individually we dont have self-consciousness in truth, it doesnt exist but what we do have is a primordial consciousness that creates the whole cosmos. I base the above on this which you and I agree on...
The whole point is getting to understand what is behind the way the cosmos works, how we work and how we relate in reference to any abilities we may have. Yes human kind thinks that the cosmos is out there somewhere and forget we reside within it also so the cosmos in reality is here and there and everywhere....
Nice post 16 I enjoyed it!
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| Oct 3, 2008 @ 1:31 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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16knots
Posts: 3,627
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Is your use of Nothingness as applied here they same nothingness we use that is not nothing [such as the void] it has something other in it too?
There is a lot of confusion with people in reference to "Nothingness," "Void," "Sunyata," etc. I believe it is all of the same thing. However, at times I read people referencing God and the "Everything that Is" and using analogies to the greater aspect and this is where it all gets confusing!!!
I look at it in easy terms. Everything we "think" exists and I do mean everything. Literally everything we know, think, feel, see, perceive, of God, Greater being, All that there IS, under any circumstance is of Nothingness, Void, Sunyata, etc. All empty in nature as described previously. I love the analogy to a mirror. Stand in front of a mirror and look at your view. You can see the whole world if you wish through a mirror. All of it is reflection, empty in nature, no inherent existence. So, this is what I mean by these terms of Nothingness, Void, Empty in Nature, Sunyate, etc.
Again, anything you imagine exists, perceive or anything else is Nothingness in nature.
Keeping that simple we can now look at what ever there is beyond it all the Greater "something" that which we can not perceive, know under our present condition, can not term, label or understand due to our limitations. Often I hear people say, "well this is what I mean by God" and so on but if this is what they think then they dont understand, they havent got it. They simply can not understand what they think is the condition of God. It IS beyond everything. Unless, they are so awakened they understand and then they would say something in simplicity that still they would not understand simply because there are no concepts for it. Does that make sense?
This part is like the mirror itself in the analogy. Like the primordial consciousness with its aspects of having a essence, nature, energy. This could be said as universal consciousness but I really dont feel this is a good term, it seems to set limitations. People seem to instantly think everything we know has universal consciousness yet this isnt so because they still tend to think in terms without Empty Nature, recognising that everything they know, feel, think, see, hear is all part of this cosmos they try to understand as a "something." A something that is real to them when in reality it is empty, a reflection, an illusion or the mirror analogy.
Without limitations, everything does have universal consciousness, everything we know but everything we dont perceive, understand, acknowledge can realise, an aspect of things we simply can not perceive due to our limitations in this condition of ours.
Its difficult to explain but think of someones face trying to look at itself, it is impossible. It exists alright, it is there but it can not see itself. Looking into the mirror it can see itself but what it ses is the reflection and not actually seeing itself. Does that make sense? Everyone can see someone elses face but not their own and when they look into a mirror they still do not see their own face but a reflection of it.
When describing anything to do with a greater consciousness, a primordial consciousness, universal consciousness or whatever we wish to call it we are just looking into a reflection. Even the mirror itself can not see itself but only a reflection of itself.
When this is clearly understood and it is difficult to grasp in respect to any aspect of a something unknown and greater to us, more things can be realised, awakening something astounding within us.
Can we see that all things no matter what they are have consciousness? Maybe the analogy with the mirror is that all reflections, meaning absolutely everything in the mirror has the mirror. One can not look at anything in the mirror without acknowledging it is an aspect of the mirror, similarly nothing can exist without being a reflection of the primordial consciousness. So, yes everything has consciousness.
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| Oct 4, 2008 @ 8:27 AM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,236
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I understand what you are trying to say sometimes words in of themselves leave us wanting for more words.
A primordial consciousness is a consciousness that is shared in that I mean, what is, is. What has been, has been, so it is not necessarily our consciousness, it is a universally shared consciousness.
It would not be thought of as our mortal mind consciousness albeit, I exist therefore I am. Thoughts confused with thinking this is my consciousness. Et al I am awake, therefore I am conscious is not real consciousness.
Again, anything you imagine exists, perceive or anything else is Nothingness in nature This implies a Conceptual perception something that really does not exist other than as a concept. If that is so I agree.
Yet to me Nothingness or the Void are not empty they contain just something other. If things are unblamed, they cease to exist;
If nothing happens there is no mind.
When things cease to exist, the mind follows them;
When the mind vanishes, things also follow it.
Things are things because of the Mind;
The Mind is the Mind because of things.
If you wish to know what these two are,
They are originally one Emptiness.
In this Void both (Mind and things) are one,
All the myriad phenomena contained in both.
If you do not distinguish refined and coarse,
How can you be for this or against that?
I.
Nothing is Something;
Something is not Nothing.
II.
The exact Opposite is the exact Same;
The exact Same is not the exact Opposite.
III.
The universe has no boundaries,
for what is beyond them if they exist must be something.
IV.
Time never began because what would fall before time
must have been time.
V.
Everything is Something;
Nothing is Nothing.
VI.
Something can never be Nothing;
Life being Something, can never cease to exist;(become nothing)
Therefore there must be Something after death.
VII.
Nothing is perfect;
Something cannot be perfect.
VIII.
The Way is perfect;
Therefore the Way is nothing - nonexistent.
Commentary on the Teachings on Nothing or the Yingyu Wu Jiao
Nothing is what it seems what you see in mind is but a conceptual presentation that you can grasp.
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| Oct 9, 2008 @ 9:57 PM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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ceecee1952
Posts: 153
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Knots and Yash...et all
This reminds me of the scientist trying to do an experiment and can't seperate his effect of being in the room taking away from the purity in observation...that blur between the observer and what is being observed. The experimenter is part of the experiment..... not seperate from the observation.
One can not seperate an individual consciousness from the Universal.The Principle of Uncertainty that you can not observe something without changing it in the process.
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| Oct 10, 2008 @ 9:32 AM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light
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yashaenka
Posts: 8,236
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Except this was not a science experiment but a nice exchange of Philosophical thought with Metaphysical overtones!
One can not seperate an individual consciousness from the Universal Want to bet?
Ok prove to 16 and I individual consciousness of the human animal is the same as the universal consciousness.
First you need to prove an individual is aware of his own consciousness and is Awakened so he can tap into and be aware of Universal consciousness.
The improbable takes a little while, the impossible just a little longer! Good luck...
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| Oct 10, 2008 @ 10:15 AM |
Metaphysics - Web of Light |
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ceecee1952
Posts: 153
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lol
to say it is not seperated is different than to say it is the same...
unless you want to CONCEPTUALIZE it... but have we not already dropped the concepts?
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