| Jun 19, 2006 @ 3:50 PM |
Death
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Classy_Blonde
Posts: 6,034
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What happens when we die? This question has been asked for centuries. For most of my life, I grew up believing the way I was taught by family and my church.
It wasn't until possibly ten years ago, I finally opened up the bible and did some reading. I also was introduced to a TV channel called 3ABN (Three Angels Broadcasting). The teachings on death were much different than I had grown up believing.
First, in all of the scripture, there is NOTHING that says we go directly to Heaven, or Hell, at the moment of death. On the contrary, if bible scripture is indeed factual, we sleep in the grave, and have no awareness of anything, until the resurrection.
Furthermore, we will not earn angelic wings. Angels are not human. This may not be a great description, but angels are somewhat like a different species. We will not don angelic wings, upon death.
I will be posting several verses, but I will be starting with one I actually didn't expect to use in the OP.
Matthew 27:52-53
52. And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53. And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
This occured immediately after Christ's crucifixion. If the saved (saints) are risen into Heaven immediately upon death, why were these bodies still lying in graves? According to scripture, the saints 'slept'.
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| Jun 19, 2006 @ 4:53 PM |
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sealacamp
Posts: 3,681
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Classy you are absolutely correct. But you know most people don't like the literal view from the bible of death, although I believe that is the correct one. I quit trying to enlighten anyone about this issue long ago. I think you are a diligent believer that merely seeks the truth and then wishes to share that truth with others. If you seek the truth the Lord will reveal it to you. As for getting others to see it with you that is another issue altogether. May you be blessed in your venture.
S
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| Jun 19, 2006 @ 4:58 PM |
Death
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torees121
Posts: 739
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I actually believe in reincarnation. I believe that how we act in this life reflects what position you will hold in your next life.
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| Jun 19, 2006 @ 5:16 PM |
Death |
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Classy_Blonde
Posts: 6,034
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Thanks seal,
I know exactly what you are saying, but I'm putting it out there, for those who don't care to research on their own. If you believe in the bible, and comprehend its interpretation, I think it would be difficult to see death differently than I described. If I'm wrong, I'm willing to have someone try to prove it.
torees,
Since you believe in Reincarnation, could you explain something that has been bothering me. How are there so many of us? If we have been reincarnated from a previous human being, where did all of these billions of beings come from? I can see being reincarnated from one person, but who got it all started? Am I making sense? And if we are spiritual beings, why do we have to have a body at all?
I need some answers.
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| Jun 19, 2006 @ 5:58 PM |
Death
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torees121
Posts: 739
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Classy... I wish I could answer your questions. People can believe in reincarnation but not the same particulars. I believe it is Hinduism that believes it is not just people that are reinacarnated. One can be an insect in a previous life and upgrade to something else. You would have to talk to someone that follows Hindu to get the exact wording.
As far as where the peopel come from and who started reincarnation. I am not sure. I do not claim to have all the answers. I just know what makes sense to me. Every living thing in life has cycles so why not humans?
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| Jun 19, 2006 @ 5:58 PM |
Death |
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torees121
Posts: 739
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Classy... I wish I could answer your questions. People can believe in reincarnation but not the same particulars. I believe it is Hinduism that believes it is not just people that are reinacarnated. One can be an insect in a previous life and upgrade to something else. You would have to talk to someone that follows Hindu to get the exact wording.
As far as where the peopel come from and who started reincarnation. I am not sure. I do not claim to have all the answers. I just know what makes sense to me. Every living thing in life has cycles so why not humans?
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| Jun 19, 2006 @ 6:08 PM |
Death
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kattsmeow
Posts: 22,628
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These were the Saints known as Moses, Abraham and some of the Old Testament people. I do believe that these are the Elders that sit beside the throne of God and Jesus.
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| Jun 19, 2006 @ 6:14 PM |
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Classy_Blonde
Posts: 6,034
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I do believe things are cyclical. I also believe mankind has not always been around. Therefore, they had to have experienced some sort of a beginning--unlike God. I do realize there are several faiths that believe you can be reincarnated as anything. That aside, and assuming one can only be reincarnated in a human form, who was the first reincarnate? Or were there just a bunch of first-time humans that magically appeared on planet earth? That is the part I have a problem with.
Another problem I have with Reincarnation is, it gives a person several lifetimes to get it right. What a great excuse to screw up and do whatever you want to do, not be accountable, and you get to come back and try it again.
I also really hate the idea of being born, and dying, over and over again. 
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| Jun 19, 2006 @ 6:15 PM |
Death
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kattsmeow
Posts: 22,628
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I want to get it right the first time!!!!! 
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| Jun 19, 2006 @ 6:30 PM |
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Classy_Blonde
Posts: 6,034
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I know what you mean, katt.
The scripture I quoted really gets my mind ticking. If the saints had not been risen, we would probably have a much better idea of just who really is in Heaven right now, or wherever they may be. The bible does not say where the saints went, after they were risen from the graves. Were they risen to Heaven? Were they returned to the grave? Since all of those who are saved are considered saints, can you imagine how many graves may have been opened up? The bible does not say all were, but we know there were "many".
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| Jun 19, 2006 @ 7:16 PM |
Death
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torees121
Posts: 739
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Classy I appreciate your questions but I can not answer them. Just as many pastors could not answer my questions about Christianity as I was growing up. I was just told to "have faith". Sorry.
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| Jun 19, 2006 @ 7:32 PM |
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bevrice
Posts: 11,141
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Well, I tend to take the other approach about heaven. I think that believers go directly to heaven to be with the Lord. The reasons I believe this are:
1. Paul said that he yearned to die and go to heaven and be with the Lord, but as long as he was needed here on earth and had work to do, he would stay here.
2. Jesus said to the thief on the cross that he would sit with him in heaven that day.
After much prayer and reflection on the resurrection, this is what I received, lol, but guess everyone has to do their own thing there.
Jesus promised us everlasting life, Jesus is life, how can we be DEAD in Christ, for us there can be no such thing. As Christians, we are not judged because Jesus took our judgement for us and God looks at us and sees His Son, His son's blood, now how could he send His son to hell, or pass judgement on Him.
The dead in Christ, according to what I received are those who did not receive him, those who never had a chance to know him and anyone who is not covered by our blood covenant with God.
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| Jun 19, 2006 @ 8:04 PM |
Death
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Classy_Blonde
Posts: 6,034
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1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
As you can see, those who have died on earth already, but have received Christ as the Savior, are risen first. Then, those who are believers and alive at the time of the Second Coming, will join the risen 'saved' dead, and God, in the air.
There is nothing scripturally that says the 'unsaved' will meet the Lord in the air. Dead in Christ means, those who are saved but have already died a mortal death.
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| Jun 19, 2006 @ 8:13 PM |
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TiNkErGrRrRrR
Posts: 13,813
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When we die, we sleep in the grave - we have no thoughts, no consciousness, no existence at all, until our resurrection. At the resurrection of the just, at the second coming, the righteous will receive eternal life. That is the reward for faith:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The body may die and decay but its whats on the inside that will live on forever.
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| Jun 19, 2006 @ 8:39 PM |
Death
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kattsmeow
Posts: 22,628
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Around the throne of God, there is the Lamb of God, 12 Elders, and saints, and Angels.
The Elders, I believe are some of the Old Testament Prophets , the Saints are people that have been martyred(sp) like the 12 disciples(maybe)
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| Jun 19, 2006 @ 8:40 PM |
Death |
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sealacamp
Posts: 3,681
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Not to mention that Jesus asked Mary and Martha when he raised Lazarus from the dead.
23Jesus told her, "Your brother will rise again."
24"Yes," Martha said, "when everyone else rises, on resurrection day."
25Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life.[e] Those who believe in me, even though they die like everyone else, will live again.
So here Jesus tells us that we will indeed die and be raised again. Still Bev had a point because Jesus also said that the theif would be with him in paradise. And again the bible tells us that Jesus was in hell for three days. So how could He be in paradise and in hell at the same time? I have a theory about that but I will keep that to myself. However Christianity is a paradoxical reality. The bottom line is that we don't really know we can only come up with what we believe. Since both sides are represented by the savior then it is merely another paradoxical event in Christ. Something that continues to repeat if you look very closely. I think it is more like this than anything else. When the Roman officer came to Jesus to heal his little girl and the people met them on the road and told him his little girl had already died, he must have looked at Jesus with a hopless expression. But Jesus said "Fear not only believe." I think that is where we have to stay no matter what the issues are, not being afraid but believing in Him. That is where I am because I don't have all the answers, and thank God I don't have to.
S
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| Jun 19, 2006 @ 9:33 PM |
Death
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Classy_Blonde
Posts: 6,034
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Thank you, seal!!!!! I meant to address that scripture. First, let me include it here:
Luke 23:43
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
There is one theory, which is possible, but I have my own. As soon as Jesus expired on the cross, graves opened up, and saints walked the streets. There is no reason the thief wasn't risen up, along with the Dead in Christ. I don't believe we know what happened to his body.
If this is the case, it would be practical to assume the others are in Heaven also. That would also include katt's belief that Moses, Abraham, David, (and I'll add some), Elijah, Noah, Adam, Eve, etc., might possibly already be in Heaven as well. This is purely speculation on my part.
Those persons who have died, since the day Jesus was crucified are sleeping in the grave. This includes the Dead in Christ, and the lost.
Now here is the controversial theory. There were no punctuations used, when the bible was written. It was up to those individuals transcribing the bible to put the commas, periods, etc., in the proper places. It is possible the comma was misplaced in front of the word "today". It should have been placed behind it, changing the entire meaning of the sentence.
Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Now--about the three days in Hell. I don't think I know about this theory. This is the second time today I've read about it. No one has given any scripture. Are you talking about the comparison between Jonah in the whale's belly and the three days in the tomb? Please explain in detail.
[Edited on 6
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| Jun 20, 2006 @ 1:03 AM |
Death |
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kattsmeow
Posts: 22,628
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And again the bible tells us that Jesus was in hell for three days. So how could He be in paradise and in hell at the same time?
Seal, could you please give me the scripture on this? I can"t find it.
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| Jun 20, 2006 @ 1:19 AM |
Death
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Haban3ro
Posts: 1,197
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Now here is the controversial theory. There were no punctuations used, when the bible was written. It was up to those individuals transcribing the bible to put the commas, periods, etc., in the proper places. It is possible the comma was misplaced in front of the word "today". It should have been placed behind it, changing the entire meaning of the sentence.
Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Close, but no cigar. The word order and the syntax of the sentence don't support it. The word order in the Greek is "amen to you I say today with me you will be in paradise."
It's clumsy in English.
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| Jun 20, 2006 @ 1:31 AM |
Death |
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Angel54214
Posts: 18,199
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'Classy' I found this scripture...
Matthew 27
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
I wonder how many there were that arose from their graves? Doesn't some where in Revelation say there are 24 elders that were at the throne when heaven opened?
"Katt", I also found this scripture:
Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
I going to try to find some more...
Ephesians 4:
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
[Edited on 6
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