| Jul 9, 2006 @ 2:50 PM |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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Bev,
Now tell me how you know how God handled any of this, sail?
I have told you more than once, God made helll for satan and his angels, he didn't intend for men to go to hell. YOU are the only one who can send YOURSELF to hell, it is YOUR choice.
First of all you know that I don't support your belief in an eternal punishment in hell.
It is the belief of many christians, yourself included, that if you do not accept Jesus as your savior, and you have attained the age of reason, upon death you will burn for eternity in hell. This is a story that supports your beliefs.
Josh attained the age of reason prior to his death.
Do you believe that God the Father and His Son would:
1. Damn Josh to eternal punishment in hell?
2. Save the Father of the twins because he repented later in his life?
If you agree with the two points above. You are then saying that our loving God will keep Josh in hell for eternity and accept Josh's father and twin into heaven.
I can't comprehend how you or any christian can say that God is all loving and also believe that He would render this verdict.
Peace
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| Jul 9, 2006 @ 2:55 PM |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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8Knots,
Does anyone wish to comment on my Posts or are they quite clear, understandable and the truth? jus sayin....
I have to appologize for not responding to your posts. I agree with the majority of your posts and read them all but like the old saying says "The squeaky hinge gets the oil".
I being bombarded from all sides right now.
Hope you understand.
Peace
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| Jul 9, 2006 @ 2:57 PM |
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8Knots
Posts: 2,710
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lol sail..... its a tough life being a man of the sea.... But most of the best men of the sea were true Christians....
Hence being between the "Devil and the deep blue sea!" and seeing St Alamos Fire
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| Jul 9, 2006 @ 3:07 PM |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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Bev,
That is why Jesus died for you to GIVE YOU that choice. He said, choose life, and who was life? Jesus. and blessings, or death, and satan is death, and cursings. That is very clear sail. It is YOUR choice.
You are babbling again and you're side stepping the questions being presented to you.
Josh the older twin really didn't have a choice. And when he tried to repent, based on christian lore, God would not accept Josh's apologies.
When are you going to answer the questions I posted to you? If you are certain of your beliefs, I would think you would shout them from the roofs.
Peace
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| Jul 10, 2006 @ 8:17 AM |
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bevrice
Posts: 11,144
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Sail, since when are YOU God, how do YOU know what God would do in this circumstance. You are taking a story and making it God's truth. It doesn't work that way.
Babbling, lol, just saying things you don't like.
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| Jul 10, 2006 @ 10:33 AM |
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8Knots
Posts: 2,710
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You two in Love with each other.
You sound like an old married couple! Muah!
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| Jul 10, 2006 @ 11:28 AM |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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8Knots,
 Now that would be HELL!
Peace
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| Jul 10, 2006 @ 11:50 AM |
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kattsmeow
Posts: 21,280
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Sail, I had a hard time even reading your article. It does make you wonder doesn't it?
Ok my take on it ok?
Accountability (sp),,,is when you are able to distinguish the difference from right and wrong. To me there is no age for this.
These 2 boys were never taught right from wrong. Evidently even in school they weren't taught any morals.
This where,,in my thoughts, "The Sins of the Father" come in. Even though he is saved,,,,  I believe tha dad will pay in some way.
The son?? Nope, Jesus would have taken him in and dried his tears and soothed him. Jesus would.
I have never thought there was or is an age for this.
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| Jul 10, 2006 @ 1:47 PM |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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Katt,
I have never thought there was or is an age for this.
Then a man/woman of any age of any age, that have not been brought up and taught christianity will be saved?
Peace
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| Jul 10, 2006 @ 2:15 PM |
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kattsmeow
Posts: 21,280
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What I meant by that was I know in some churches they believe there is an age for accountability. I don't.
Needless to say, if you can understand right from wrong,,at any age you will be held accountable. Even our courts have to decide on this issue.
Example: There comes a time when our children know right from wrong. As parents we are suppose to teach them that.
I also think that being Baptized before they can decide what they even know is not a good thing.
Ok, then there are people that have told me, " My child got saved at 10 years old". Really? I wonder, how can that be? To me, they need alittle more learning to understand the what and why of it don't you?
This is where the Laws in the churches need some one to talk some common sense into them. Or should I say their Doctrines?
Sigh, did I ramble on Sail? Lol, Did I even answer you? If not, ask me again... 
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| Jul 10, 2006 @ 2:43 PM |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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Katt,
Sigh, did I ramble on Sail? Lol, Did I even answer you?
You didn't ramble and you gave a good answer.
But I'm trying to set a stage or (in the case of the bible) a parable.
You either have to accept the fact that everyone will be saved, after paying for their sins then being cleansed and enter paradise
or
There has to be some line a person has to cross to be considered at the age of reason.
Let's change the ages of the twins to 16 since most states use this age to determine if a person is tried as an adult or juvenile.
Everything else in the story would remain the same.
Do you then believe that Josh (at 16 now) deserves to be punished for eternity?
Do you think that the father (even if he had to pay for his sins in some other way) should enter God's Realm because he accepted Jesus later in life?
Do you really believe Jesus or His Father would torture Josh for eternity in hell?
Do you think its right for Josh while burning in hell, to look to heaven and see brutal father in heaven with his twin brother?
Does your impression of Jesus and His Father support the fact that they would tell Josh it was too late for him to be sorry?
The story doesn't matter. Somewhere a line has to be drawn and whatever or however you define that line, this type of situation can occur.
Peace
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| Jul 10, 2006 @ 3:07 PM |
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kattsmeow
Posts: 21,280
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Ok, I am going to think a bit on this ok? Being that I have been raised in so many different beliefs I think I tend to try to put the good things I have read and heard into my own religion.
In my belief, you need to be saved and believe that Jesus is your Savior.
What age would you be held accountable? I don't know.
Lol, I really should think this through first huh?
I am going to say,,I have a problem with someone doing things like in the story, being able to go and dwell in Heaven along with people that have did the "right" things, or tried to be the best they can. This is where I am in the learning stages right now. I have been told,,,anyone can be saved if they truly believe.
As far as being 16,,,,it is still hard for me to believe this child would go to hell.
This is a good one Sail!!!! Now I will have to think on how I feel about it.
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| Jul 10, 2006 @ 4:58 PM |
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bevrice
Posts: 11,144
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And now, eight, I even liked you before you said that, lol, but will forgive you and turn the other cheek. I forgive sail all the time, he has not reached the "age of acountabilty" spiritually yet, lol, teasing
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| Jul 10, 2006 @ 5:13 PM |
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8Knots
Posts: 2,710
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I like you too Bev.... ut oh....
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| Jun 17 @ 10:56 AM |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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This is a very old thread that I authored and I thought I would bring it to the top since many of the current posters to the R&S were not exposed to it.
Please read the story that starts in the OP. It is lenghty but does pose a good question about christianity and its definition of salvation.
Don't be shy. Respond with your thoughts on this story and whether you agree or disagree about its true reflection on christian beliefs.
Peace
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| Jun 17 @ 1:38 PM |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 835
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I don't believe in Dante's version of hell, so I can't go along with the plausibility of the story.
If I did, child abusers & molesters are some of the first I would want to see sent there.
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| Jun 18 @ 9:31 AM |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 835
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I thnk that there are a lot of misconceptions about God and the bible.
First off, the bible itself states that we "see through a glass darkly" and that it will not, (nor should be expected to) provide a clear picture of how it all works.
Also, the father in this story is a sick disgusting pervert, and a Christian, but he would be a the same sick disgusting pervert if he had decided to become a Buddhist, Wiccan, or athiest. The Christian religion doesn't not have a monoploy on unsavory characters. Neither does it disallow unsavory characters from proclaiming to be Christian.
One does not drive the other.
Consider "he-who-shan't-be-named" He is not a jerk because he is Christian. He is a jerk because he is a jerk. If he had the same attitude but was proclaiming his faith as Buddhist or Wiccan, he would be damaging those religions instead of Christianity.
I think you have to judge any faith by it's premise, and not the people claiming to follow it.
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| Jun 18 @ 10:17 AM |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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Lance,
Also, the father in this story is a sick disgusting pervert, and a Christian, but he would be a the same sick disgusting pervert if he had decided to become a Buddhist, Wiccan, or athiest. The Christian religion doesn't not have a monoploy on unsavory characters. Neither does it disallow unsavory characters from proclaiming to be Christian.
One does not drive the other.
I don't think the story in any way states that only christians can be parents like the one described. I think that the stroy took form like that to question the belief that most christians have about salvation, heaven and hell.
So I agree with your statement but I think it has nothing to do with the questions it rasies about christian dogma.
I think you have to judge any faith by it's premise, and not the people claiming to follow it. Again I agree with you, but you are in the minority when it comes to christians interpretation of salvation. The majority of christians believe in eternal damnation and this story is aimed at them.
If you notice, the christians that believe in the eternal damnation nonsense are the ones that do not respond to questions like this. Why is it that these christians cannot stand up and support their views on this story and what it makes their god out to be?
Peace
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| Jun 18 @ 11:56 AM |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 835
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I think that we pretty much on the same page on alot of things, and on the rest I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
I don't think the story in any way states that only christians can be parents like the one described. Sometimes it seems like Christians are typified as being mean hateful people. True this story never stated that the one here was in the majority, there are so many evil Christians stories out there, I think that it is fair to point out
The majority of christians believe in eternal damnation and this story is aimed at them. Too many of them like to quote the bible rather than actually read it. There never seems to be a shortage of experts.
Why is it that these christians cannot stand up and support their views on this story and what it makes their god out to be? LOL, I can't answer for anyone else but me.
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| Jun 18 @ 1:00 PM |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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So is ther anyone out there that believes in eternal damnation that cares to comment on this story?
Peace
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