| Jun 18 @ 4:11 PM |
Tale of Two Twins
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1stsignofspring
Posts: 16,241
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Sail.....I will comment later....I am on my way out....looks like a good one to read though... 
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| Jun 19 @ 6:49 AM |
Tale of Two Twins |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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Isn't it funny that lord Hunt who claims to know all about christianity's stand on salvation hasn't said one word to support his preaching of hell and damnation?
I thought that he would answer any question about his beliefs. At least that is what he said in the "Report Abuse" thread.
So Hunt, please explain why christian dogma related to salvation allows for cases like this. You would think that a loving god would handle things differently.
Peace
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| Jun 19 @ 8:44 AM |
Tale of Two Twins
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hunt4luv
Posts: 1,234
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Sail
Isn't it funny that lord Hunt who claims to know all about Christianity's stand on salvation hasn't said one word to support his preaching of hell and damnation?
I would like for you to provide Hell and damnation Quotes that I have said sail as you have accused me here. Make sure you use my words in the context they were stated in. If we are to have a conversation it will be in Honesty.
First of this is a manufactured story by your own admission. I realize you the
manufacturer of it have a strong aggression towards Christianity as it is practiced by many.
I will attempt to address your presentation even though it is a made up story by one with issues against Christianity.
First off.
The father in this story is Definitely not a Christian. He is bent and twisted with
perversion, brutality, and disrespect for life in General. He is completely engrossed in self and doesn't have a clue what Jesus is really about.
Jesus said He who harms one of these is better off to have a millstone hung around his neck and to be cast into the deep.
Is this scenario a possibility up to the point of death of the two boys? Sadly in the cruel selfish world we live in today yes it is. Their are people who can abuse others in the name of God while they are worse then monsters. There truly is Evil in this world as well as light.
God is love.
In the scenario you have given you have painted a picture of twisted belief of those who would choose staunch legalism as a whip.
The age of accountability is a place in the heart and understanding of each person that God alone can be the judge of. My god is true and righteous altogether and his judgment is true. He looks upon the heart and sees our fruit.
he knows those who truly believe, and those who are self serving and just pay lip service to him.
I would say look upon yourself and see what it is within you that breeds such hatred for that which is truly beautiful when truly represented.
Much of the world today screams I am Christian yet their lives tell a different tale.
many of the rules of traditionalism cannot be found in Gods word. Religion Kills the spirit. A personal relationship with God opens up the truth of God's word to us.
You manufacture a scenario here to attack Christian Teaching and without truly knowing the Love of God. Your scenario of a cruel unloving God is troubling to say the least.
Disobedience in all of our lives can put us in a place with our relationship with God that we do not wish to be. If we cannot acknowledge the need for forgiveness in our lives true repentance is not possible. I would say Choose you this day whom you would serve. and get your eyes off those who do Christianity badly
and Ask God to help you serve him rightly. I have no desire to preach "Hunts Truth" as I have been accused and lead anyone to it. I would say again Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling because our choices do have Consequences. Ask God to show you his way. But first before this can be done one must acknowledge HE IS. How can we believe on that which we do not know.
If we are placing our eyes on men and judging their example we will usually find that which we will be disappointed in. There was only one perfect man. The rest should be seeking to follow in his footsteps. How another one decides to live should not effect my seeking to do it rightly. There are many bad examples of Christianity. Does this give us an excuse just to be another one? I say we each have the responsibility for our own soul.
CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY
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| Jun 19 @ 9:09 AM |
Tale of Two Twins |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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Hunt,
Just like a trained evangelist, you have made a long post that does not answer the questions posted to you. You also leave out certain parts of the story to evade commenting on them.
The older twin reached the age of reason. He knew the difference between good and evil and because his father was evil and preached Jesus and his father to the twins, made up his mind that Jesus and the father were as evil as his father.
When the twins commmitted suicide, whatever the definition, the older boy was considered to have reached the age of reason while the younger twin was considered not to have reached the age of reason.
You said yourself, that each person reaches the age of reason at different times.
The story also says that the suicides caused a major change in the father's outlook and he and his new mate both became born again christians, turning their lives around.
The result whether you want to accept it or not is that:
1) the older twin ends up in a burning hell even though he begs forgiveness from your god.
2) the younger twin that the older twin loved and defended goes to heaven.
3) the father the culprit in this story because of the change caused by the suicide, repented, became born again, and lived the remainder of his life as Jesus' devoted servant. Since he repented before he died, he was also allowed entry to heaven.
For you to answer this question, you must justify each of these points. Not go into one of your preaching fits.
So when are you going to answer the question actually presented to you?
Peace
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| Jun 19 @ 9:34 AM |
Tale of Two Twins
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hunt4luv
Posts: 1,234
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No Sail I don't have to justify your scenario because your scenerio is bent by disrespect for God.
as for the two falling trying to escape the father I would not call that suicide.
I said each person has an age of accountability and God knows when that time is.
Your scenario is bent because it is meant to make God out to be a legalistic monster. Remember if you wish to have discusions with me, Honesty is required a I will not tolerate twisting of my words. If this is done we will not have a discussion. You decide Honesty = discusion
Dishonesty = no discussion
Reminder
would like for you to provide Hell and damnation Quotes that I have said sail as you have accused me here. Make sure you use my words in the context they were stated in. If we are to have a conversation it will be in Honesty.
Please give Quotes as to my supposed hellfire and damnation
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| Jun 19 @ 9:55 AM |
Tale of Two Twins |
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LanceVarden7
Posts: 835
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The father in this story is Definitely not a Christian. He is bent and twisted with
perversion, brutality, and disrespect for life in General. He is completely engrossed in self and doesn't have a clue what Jesus is really about. So are you saying that those sort of people can not be Christian? Have you added to this to the list unpardonable sins?
Jesus said He who harms one of these is better off to have a millstone hung around his neck and to be cast into the deep. Close but not quite.
Mark 9
42. And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. Matthew 18
4. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
By the way, how's that "hubling" thing working out for you hunt?
Is this scenario a possibility up to the point of death of the two boys? Sadly in the cruel selfish world we live in today yes it is. Their are people who can abuse others in the name of God while they are worse then monsters. There truly is Evil in this world as well as light. hunt, please reread what you wrote about six times. It is the best thing you have ever written. Do YOU abuse others in the name of God?
In the scenario you have given you have painted a picture of twisted belief of those who would choose staunch legalism as a whip. Is the scenario plausible? Does this sort of thing happen?
The age of accountability is a place in the heart and understanding of each person that God alone can be the judge of. My god is true and righteous altogether and his judgment is true. He looks upon the heart and sees our fruit. he knows those who truly believe, and those who are self serving and just pay lip service to him. I would say look upon yourself and see what it is within you that breeds such hatred for that which is truly beautiful when truly represented. OK, yeah, yeah. Is this a fair dipiction of the way YOU BELIEVE God operates?
You manufacture a scenario here to attack Christian Teaching and without truly knowing the Love of God. Your scenario of a cruel unloving God is troubling to say the least. Is it accurate?
I have no desire to preach "Hunts Truth" as I have been accused and lead anyone to it. It's getting deep in here. How's your march going? Everyone but you remaining silent as ordered? Perhaps you should remind them again.
No Sail I don't have to justify your scenario because your scenerio is bent by disrespect for God. You don't have to, but you should want to. You are so bent on getting your truth out there, here is a golden opportunity.
as for the two falling trying to escape the father I would not call that suicide. The method is irrelevant. If that's not suicice, then say he took a pistol out and shot. Minching words about the method is not the question. If he DOES commit suicide, is that how you believe the story ends?
Your scenario is bent because it is meant to make God out to be a legalistic monster. Is is a fair question. This sort of stuff DOES happen to kids. It is reasonable to ask if this is how the story ends on the other side.
Remember if you wish to have discusions with me, Honesty is required a I will not tolerate twisting of my words. If this is done we will not have a discussion.
You decide
Honesty = discusion
Dishonesty = no discussion I don't see any sort of dishonesty in the question posed by the scenario.
Could it really be:
I don't have an answer = no discussion?
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| Jun 19 @ 10:03 AM |
Tale of Two Twins
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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Hunt,
You keep dodging the question. The truth is that this condition can occur.
If it did, how can you justify the outcome?
There are many ways to tell similar stories that result in the same questions.
You are attacking a scenario instead of explaining why based on your dogma it cannot happen. Being that you are unable show that your dogma cannot result in an ending like this, you say that the "scenerio is bent by disrespect for God". That is just a cop out and you know it.
Just answer the questions based on your understanding of christian dogma.
Peace
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| Jun 19 @ 10:16 AM |
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1stsignofspring
Posts: 16,241
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Sail...with no disrespect intended.....I think you already know the answer to your questions, and you are familiar with the Christian faith. This thread is to bait Christians in defending their God for your playtime.
If I honestly thought you really wanted to know the answers to your questions on Christian Doctrine of heaven and hell...etc. I would answer you.
Hunt's response was good, but in his wisdom decided not to take on the Hell issue with you, knowing you don't believe in it in the first place. You asked for a fight and you didn't get one.
We may be Christians...but we are not stupid...  
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| Jun 19 @ 10:19 AM |
Tale of Two Twins
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hunt4luv
Posts: 1,234
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The truth is sail you dont know what happens in the afterlife. and are making god to be a monster.
Lance. You make many accusations. Your problem is with Gods word not me.
You don't throw half of Gods word away and rewrite the other half to fit your own personal religion.
You have openly attacked me many times. Because I have stood up and given an honest opinion based on the Bible as Gods word. If one cannot except the Bible as Gods word, They don't know what christianity is.
You be your own Judge Our conversations will not be. For the simple reason of your personal hatred for me for whatever reason you have. I wish you no I'll Yet have no desire to play Games either.
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| Jun 19 @ 10:33 AM |
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SweetNapaGuy
Posts: 4,565
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You don't throw half of Gods word away and rewrite the other half to fit your own personal religion.
Actually, pretty much everyone who professes to be a Christian does exactly that. (Just as every adherent of every religion that's ever existed has done the same thing with their sacred works.)
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| Jun 19 @ 10:42 AM |
Tale of Two Twins
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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1stsignofspring,
We may be Christians...but we are not stupid...
Sure you are. By saying I am trying to set you up, you obviously have come to the conclusion that there is no way for you to justify christianity's sick belief of eternal damnation. Your dogma has your mind so f**ked up that you think it is intelligent to refuse to attempt to answer it. The opposite is true, it is ignorance that causes you not to accept the flaws in your beliefs. The idea that god would not accept the boys pleas and appologies because it was too late, must have hit you like a punch to the stomach.
So what do you do? You try and erase that memory by claiming that the scenario was created to just bate you. Sorry, it was not created to bate you but to make you think. Is this the god you worship and continually refer to as an all loving god?
Christians live in a delusional world. When something causes them to think, that delusion is revealed. Those that can accept the fact that their dogma doesn't make sense, are better off. Those that react like you and Hunt, refuse reality and for some reason depend on the delusion so much that they can't even question it.
So hide from the facts if you wish. It is your right to believe in anything you want. But if you cannot answer these questions truthfully without talking against your dogma, realize that now you are placing faith in something that you yourself have already found fault.
Peace
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| Jun 19 @ 10:49 AM |
Tale of Two Twins |
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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Hunt,
The truth is sail you dont know what happens in the afterlife. and are making god to be a monster. You're right! I don't know exactly what to expect in the afterlife. It is you who claims to know this based on your dogma.
I am not making a monster of my god since my god would never allow something like this to happen.
My answer to you is the same I gave 1stsignofspring above.
You know what this scenario unveils about your dogma and you refuse to accept the fact that based on your dogma it can happen. You are in denial!
Peace
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| Jun 19 @ 10:58 AM |
Tale of Two Twins
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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Lance,
Good post! And from a christian too!
You are able to reply as you did because you do not believe that christianity teaches eternal damnation but second death.
I myself do not believe in either! I think that salvation was created by man to create a need for religion.
I do however respect your right to your belief.
I would also respect the rights of christians believing in eternal punishment if they weren't so brainwashed and admitted that their dogma has its flaws. Instead they use this concept of eternal damnation to place fear into potential new converts and offer them salvation from this unrealistic portrait of god.
Peace
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| Jun 19 @ 10:59 AM |
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1stsignofspring
Posts: 16,241
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God is a Just and Righteous judge....He rains on the Just and the unjust...
Who is your God Sail? What is your faith based on? I don't think I've ever read it anywhere as I'm the new kid on the block
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| Jun 19 @ 11:06 AM |
Tale of Two Twins
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1stsignofspring
Posts: 16,241
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I don't have any problem with discussing the Christian doctrine concerning Hell Sail.....but I won't discuss it with someone who has no desire to learn about it and is only looking for an argument against it. God is not contradictory and is a fair God....no loopholes.
Yes, I know many have said man wrote Salvation into the equations to help them feel better about their sin...but I somehow can't imagine a man writing Hell into the equation.....I don't think a man would do that as it wouldn't benefit him... 
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| Jun 19 @ 11:10 AM |
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16knots
Posts: 3,627
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Hunt:
I would like for you to provide Hell and damnation Quotes that I have said sail as you have accused me here. Make sure you use my words in the context they were stated in. If we are to have a conversation it will be in Honesty.
YOU need to get real and be honest. You have stated countless times your rhetoric. It is insidious and evil in itself! Even the words "CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY" is insidious! Get real!
First of this is a manufactured story by your own admission. I realize you the manufacturer of it have a strong aggression towards Christianity as it is practiced by many.
Excuses!
I will attempt to address your presentation even though it is a made up story by one with issues against Christianity.
Give your proof that it is without dogma!
Jesus said He who harms one of these is better off to have a millstone hung around his neck and to be cast into the deep.
Is that loving and compassionate? 
Is this scenario a possibility up to the point of death of the two boys? Sadly in the cruel selfish world we live in today yes it is. Their are people who can abuse others in the name of God while they are worse then monsters. There truly is Evil in this world as well as light.
Yes, we can see that Hunt Take a hint.
God is love.
God is "jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control freak; a vindictive, bloody thirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully" to quote Richard Dawkins.
"God, isnt God a shit!" Thomas Jefferson.
In the scenario you have given you have painted a picture of twisted belief of those who would choose staunch legalism as a whip.
The age of accountability is a place in the heart and understanding of each person that God alone can be the judge of. My god is true and righteous altogether and his judgment is true. He looks upon the heart and sees our fruit.
he knows those who truly believe, and those who are self serving and just pay lip service to him.
I would say look upon yourself and see what it is within you that breeds such hatred for that which is truly beautiful when truly represented.
Just told you the truth about your God.
Much of the world today screams I am Christian yet their lives tell a different tale.
Yes it does hunt. Take a hint again Its free. Dont get married.
You manufacture a scenario here to attack Christian Teaching and without truly knowing the Love of God. Your scenario of a cruel unloving God is troubling to say the least.
Its amazing how everyone can debate politics or anything under the sun practically but when it comes to "Christianity".... "oh... no!... no!" dont go there.  Its always called attacks and excuses.
Yes, cruel unloving God smacks of truth doesnt it? Get use to it. get familiar with it as you wise up away from the true evils of the world.
Disobedience in all of our lives can put us in a place with our relationship with God that we do not wish to be. If we cannot acknowledge the need for forgiveness in our lives true repentance is not possible. I would say Choose you this day whom you would serve. and get your eyes off those who do Christianity badly
and Ask God to help you serve him rightly.
You mean YOUR life. You have the delusions this is so with a few other unfortunate delusional souls.
I have no desire to preach "Hunts Truth" as I have been accused and lead anyone to it. I would say again Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling because our choices do have Consequences. Ask God to show you his way. But first before this can be done one must acknowledge HE IS. How can we believe on that which we do not know.
Then dont do it and stop getting yourself in deep chit!!!! Thought you said you dont do this... "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling because our choices do have Consequences" Hellfire and eternal damnation preaching!
Your God is a complete chit!!! Hunt. Get use to the facts. The world is a better place without him as we strive for love, compassion and wisdom.
If we are placing our eyes on men and judging their example we will usually find that which we will be disappointed in. There was only one perfect man.
So you are saying Jesus, the man who would have us harm our father, mother, brother, sister etc, the one that brings not peace upon us is a perfect man  The REAL Jesus If he existed may have been a good man, a great man but the Bible is a book of history!
The rest should be seeking to follow in his footsteps. How another one decides to live should not effect my seeking to do it rightly. There are many bad examples of Christianity. Does this give us an excuse just to be another one? I say we each have the responsibility for our own soul.
Get off you soap box and get real!
CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY
On one side we have ignorance and on the other side we have wisdom.
CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY
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| Jun 19 @ 11:12 AM |
Tale of Two Twins
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sail_dancer
Posts: 8,601
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1stsignofspring,
God is a Just and Righteous judge....He rains on the Just and the unjust... Then you truthfully believe that the older twin's eternal damnation was a "just and righteous" judgement by your god?
Who is your God Sail? The answer to this is all over the R&S forum threads.
What is your faith based on? I follow the teachings of Jesus, my Master. I am a follower of the "way".
I don't think I've ever read it anywhere as I'm the new kid on the block
It is too much to discuss in a one post answer to you. You will eventually learn what my beliefs are. They are unique to me and I don't preach to convert people because there is nothing (meaning religion or dogma) to convert them to.
Peace
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| Jun 19 @ 11:14 AM |
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16knots
Posts: 3,627
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Hunt:
The truth is sail you dont know what happens in the afterlife. and are making god to be a monster.
Does that mean you dont either
But do men know the after-life? Yes they do if you seek the information and know how to realize it.
Lance. You make many accusations. Your problem is with Gods word not me.
You don't throw half of Gods word away and rewrite the other half to fit your own personal religion.
People have done this all the time and I believe they do it more often these days.
You have openly attacked me many times. Because I have stood up and given an honest opinion based on the Bible as Gods word. If one cannot except the Bible as Gods word, They don't know what christianity is.
I admire you for your stubbornness but sometimes you are not honest. People have been good Christians but found the truth by it. Christianity lacks awareness of truth.
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| Jun 19 @ 11:14 AM |
Tale of Two Twins
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16knots
Posts: 3,627
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sail:
Your dogma has your mind so f**ked up that you think it is intelligent to refuse to attempt to answer it.
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| Jun 19 @ 11:14 AM |
Tale of Two Twins |
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1stsignofspring
Posts: 16,241
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I believe the correct quote is..
"Choose ye this day whom you will serve"
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