| Sep 16, 2006 @ 11:29 AM |
Clash of Civilizations?
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MotownManiax
Posts: 9,737
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The latest controversy is of course the Pope's remarks about Islam, which has gotten the typical over-reaction and calls for revenge and Jihad.
What do you think? Are we living at the cusp of a real religious ideological war or already in one. If so, do you think it can be solved without the entire world running red with blood?
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| Sep 16, 2006 @ 11:36 AM |
Clash of Civilizations? |
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spongebob777
Posts: 7,904
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I think we should pay attention to the words of Adam Ghadan of a few weeks ago. "Convert to islam or we will kill you".
At this point it's become the religion of perpetual outrage and their threats to attack the Vatican would lead to disaster if they ever carry it out.
I do think disaster can be averted if western liberals stop attacking us and start supporting the voices of moderate islam in the mideast.
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| Sep 16, 2006 @ 11:43 AM |
Clash of Civilizations?
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budo13
Posts: 3,609
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no motown i don't think we can i stated in the ROOT OF ALL EVIL thread that i believed religions were because of all the bloody wars we have fought in the name of god. very very sad anytime we have extremist christian,jewish,islamic or any other we will be at war.remember war is started by a few and suffered by the many,i have never doupted god but i've always doupted man.
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| Sep 16, 2006 @ 11:51 AM |
Clash of Civilizations? |
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 18,606
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I do think disaster can be averted if western liberals stop attacking us and start supporting the voices of moderate islam in the mideast.
Sponge, who are 'us'? And who are the voices of moderate Islam? At one point, Saddam was a moderate voice and we supported him; at another point, bin Laden was seen as our hope for the future; we trained and equipped him. I suspect the Vatican diplomats will handle the Islamic pique much better without any help from 'us'.
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| Sep 16, 2006 @ 11:57 AM |
Clash of Civilizations?
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Jankia
Posts: 11,900
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While we have ideological and religious attack by Islamic extremists on a bedrock American principle: freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of association and freedom of the press,we have witnessed in the last 25 years a remarkable proliferation of democracies, including the peaceful transformation of the former Soviet Union. But the war of ideas continues.Syria and Iran have supported terrorist organizations for years and show no sign of letting up.
All of us must consistently stand against terrorism and for freedom. Otherwise, the cost - and our vulnerability - will be too much to bear.
Unfortunatly I dont see it possible to stop "without the entire world running red with blood" when the enemy of our enemy is not our friend.
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| Sep 16, 2006 @ 12:07 PM |
Clash of Civilizations? |
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spongebob777
Posts: 7,904
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Sponge, who are 'us'? And who are the voices of moderate Islam?
I know you stand for exactly what I suggest because you've posted things from people like Wafa Sultan who says exactly what needs to be said. I'm talking about groups like code pink. If they would redirect their energy away from attacking the president and toward encouraging more people like Sultan, I would become a donor
As far as Saddam is concerned, his moderation was more a matter of convenience but in the last years of his reign he had undertaken building mosques all over the country. He was openly paying money to families of Palestinian suicide bombers. He was an opportunist and a brutal dictator. I was never a fan of going into Iraq and I think we made serious mistakes while there but the job must be finished.
Unfortunately the moderates in the Muslim world are the ones you read about being beaten to death by mobs in the west bank, or hung from cranes in Iran. Just yesterday I read a story about a Pakistani girl who was gang raped for seeking an education.
One thing we all agree on is the fact that there are no simple universal answers for the problems of the Mideast.
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| Sep 16, 2006 @ 12:43 PM |
Clash of Civilizations?
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MotownManiax
Posts: 9,737
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I totally agree about religion, budo. That’s why religious clergy, no matter what faith, should NOT run governments. The Pope may be a powerful religious figure, but that’s all he is. Direct influence by the Catholic Church in European political and military affairs ended centuries ago.
Not so with Islam. If anything, radical Islam is becoming the new religious scourge of Europe and parts of Africa and Asia. If present population trends continue—especially in Europe, where the declining birthrate of indigenous Europeans is telling—there will be a Muslim majority in just a few decades.
Many religious scholars believe Islam is entering into a new “Golden Age”, where past injustices by Western powers, whether real or perceived, will be rectified by a glorious, jihadist holy war. That’s very disturbing if you’re thought of as the enemy and would be subject to either conversion or death if the religion ever became the dominant political force in the world. And don’t think that’s not the goal. Anybody with even the slightest interest in world events should be concerned and alarmed with the trend in religious unrest, and the unrest is coming from Islam, not Catholicism, Hinduism, or Buddhism.
In fact, the majority of citizens in predominantly “Islamic” countries would welcome a religious theocracy, or are even actively seeking one. There is no concept of separation of Church and State in Islam—religion, politics, and life are thought of as one. Could you imagine hundreds of Iran’s popping up all over the world, with crazy, anti-Western/Israeli mullahs put in charge and having access to wmd, or at the very least having the ability to “officially” sponsor even MORE terrorism?
Btw, our involvement in Iraq does not alter all these facts in the slightest. It’s been a basic trend for years.
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| Sep 16, 2006 @ 12:51 PM |
Clash of Civilizations? |
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budo13
Posts: 3,609
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motown i'm glad to see we are like minded on this subject  i feel alot of folks out there misunderstand me when i post! i see a very real danger in these zealots and they need to be taken out by any means neccesary. we cannot as world citizens allow these fanatics thier way.
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| Sep 16, 2006 @ 3:05 PM |
Clash of Civilizations?
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tyrannyforyou
Posts: 3,066
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why would anyone really care? the pope is nothing more than a robe wearing, goofy hat donning old german preaching his hatred in the name of religion and the big corporation he is CEO of(the catholic church)
he is nothing. he has no true power.
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| Sep 16, 2006 @ 6:17 PM |
Clash of Civilizations? |
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spongebob777
Posts: 7,904
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i am personally offended
Praying to our lady of perpetual outrage are we. 
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| Sep 16, 2006 @ 6:20 PM |
Clash of Civilizations?
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LipGlossQueen9
Posts: 10,955
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yeah, if he had said the "n" word, people besides me would notice and jump down his throat. and don't deny it. what, do we pick and choose who we don't say deragatory things about now?
i've been called a "raghead" over one hundred times since I was fourteen years old by people who believe lies they hear on television. I am personally offended.
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| Sep 16, 2006 @ 6:27 PM |
Clash of Civilizations? |
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spongebob777
Posts: 7,904
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I don't believe most of what I read on the internet.
Interesting thing is the fact that this outrage stems from a centuries old quote the Pope read. Guess historical documents and the like are now off limits too.
[Edited on 9/16/2006 6:43 PM]
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| Sep 16, 2006 @ 6:48 PM |
Clash of Civilizations?
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MotownManiax
Posts: 9,737
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if the muslim world gets together and win if they use their ultimate weapon: cutting the west off from oil supplies
Absolutely, tryanny. If they ever quite squabbling amongst themselves and showed real unity they could paralyze the West in a day, then I'd like to hear what the critics recommend we do?
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| Sep 16, 2006 @ 6:55 PM |
Clash of Civilizations? |
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spongebob777
Posts: 7,904
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I'd like to hear what the critics recommend we do?
I'm not a critic but I'm all for alternative fuels and I think people are going to be surprised at how fast we would start using things like ethanol and biodiesel. A friend who's a pipfitter tells me he sees nothing but ethanol plants in his future. He's working on building one now (Litchfield Mi) and his company has two more contracts for them in the next 5 years.
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| Sep 16, 2006 @ 7:00 PM |
Clash of Civilizations?
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MotownManiax
Posts: 9,737
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Totally agree, Spongy. The reason the Middle East holds such power and importance is our continued and apparently inexhaustible addiction to oil. So long as that exists we will be dependent. We need ethanol, or "any" viable alternative, to start weaning ourselves off and getting some semblance of independency back.
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| Sep 16, 2006 @ 7:03 PM |
Clash of Civilizations? |
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spongebob777
Posts: 7,904
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Now if only I could get a fuel cell for the house I could cut the umbilical from Consumers energy Corp. 
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| Sep 16, 2006 @ 7:36 PM |
Clash of Civilizations?
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tyrannyforyou
Posts: 3,066
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remember this: biulding those ethanol plants are expensive so the product will be expensive. corporations don't do things for anyone but themselves. i read an exxon report from their european operations concerning biodiesel. if the plants were functional now, they would take five to eight years to pay off with the consumer paying a premium for biodiesel over gasoline. the report was inconclusive as to how many plants should be built.
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| Sep 16, 2006 @ 8:46 PM |
Clash of Civilizations? |
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dixiepixie
Posts: 869
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if the plants were functional now, they would take five to eight years to pay off with the consumer paying a premium for biodiesel over gasoline. the report was inconclusive as to how many plants should be built.
tyranny, did they say how much of a premium? Aren't we already paying a premium? Not necessarily at the gas pump but if you factor in the costs of all other aspects of using the type of fuel we currently use, including environmental costs. Would the cost be prohibitive? I wouldn't mind paying a bit more if it meant we could end our dependence on oil for good.
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| Sep 16, 2006 @ 8:52 PM |
Clash of Civilizations?
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tyrannyforyou
Posts: 3,066
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the numbers that were published in that report were less than a dollar more per gallon than gasoline until about 2008. then it would come down depending on the cost overruns. i am trying to find the link for the report.
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| Sep 16, 2006 @ 9:02 PM |
Clash of Civilizations? |
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spongebob777
Posts: 7,904
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the numbers that were published in that report were less than a dollar more per gallon than gasoline until about 2008. then it would come down depending on the cost overruns.
According to the history channel, in the early days of drilling for oil, the oil went for over $700 a barrel if price adjusted to today's prices. Ethanol will do the same like all commodities. VCRs and DVD players once cost a great deal more than they do today.
Necessity truly is the mother of invention.
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