| Oct 21, 2006 @ 10:37 PM |
What To Do About Illegal Immigration...
|
|
Martin666
Posts: 2,195
|
Based on Article I of the 14th Amendment, any person born on U.S. soil is automatically a full citizen, period, end of story, uncontested and uncontestable. The only way out of that is to amend the Constitution. That's unlikely - - to put it mildly.
If the childs parents are illegal at the time of the childs birth, they remain illegal. But the existence of the "legal" child gives them a huge boost up in the naturalization process. The INR call's this the "anchor baby" scenario. The child has the full rights of citizenship. The parents technically still have none. You can deport the parents, but you can't deport the child. It's an impossible situation morally and politicaly.
If there are in fact 15,000,000 illegal immigrants who have entered this country, how many children do you suppose they've had in the last ten or twelve years? Perhaps 3,000,000 as a conservative guess? What are we going to do under a "deport them all" scenario--remove 3,000,000 children from their parents and place them in foster care?
If a mother who is a citizen of the U.S. has a child in a foreign country, that child is automatically a U.S. citizen. I think they call this "aquired citizenship."
[Edited on 10/21/2006 11:05 PM]
|
|
  |
|
| Oct 21, 2006 @ 11:06 PM |
What To Do About Illegal Immigration... |
|
SunBabe
Posts: 12,279
|
The birth of a child abroad to U.S. citizen parent(s) should be reported as soon as possible to the nearest American consular office for the purpose of establishing an official record of the child’s claim to U.S. citizenship at birth. The official record is in the form of a Consular Report of Birth Abroad of a Citizen of the United States of America. This document, referred to as the Consular Report of Birth or FS-240, is considered a basic United States citizenship document. An original FS-240 is furnished to the parent(s) at the time the registration is approved http://travel.state.gov/family/family_issues/birth/birth_593.html
It wasn't always so easy. At one point, it was "automatic" and simple IF the parents were stationed overseas in the military. My own case is kind of sketchy, officially, because I was born of California parents, NOT in the military at the time, in Germany (1948). I have a very GERMAN birth certificate, unlike those issued to regular dependents. It would be hard to prove much by the passport I came over here on at 6 months old -- I was a very generic looking baby in my mothers arms and we came here on a ship with 300 or more "war brides" and their offspring. Paperwork was kind of a mess back then 
|
| |
|
| Oct 21, 2006 @ 11:11 PM |
What To Do About Illegal Immigration...
|
|
dixiepixie
Posts: 869
|
SensualGemini they are called anchor babies, border babies, and jackpot babies. Though border states have in the past been bearing the greatest strain, this is happening in every state where illegals are settling.
LINK-'Border baby' boom strains S. Texas
More illegal immigrants are pouring into the state to give birth
Doctors and health officials say they are overwhelmed by both the new arrivals and those immigrant mothers who already are in the state. Even Houston's feeling the pinch. An estimated 70 percent to 80 percent of the 10,587 births at Ben Taub General Hospital and Lyndon B. Johnson General Hospital last year were to undocumented immigrants, administrators say.
Also feeling the strain is Starr County, an already poor South Texas county that has the region's only taxpayer-supported hospital district. Immigrants "want a U.S.-born baby" and know that emergency room staffers don't collect any money up front, said Dr. Mario Rodriguez, an obstetrician in Starr County.
"The word is out: Come to Starr County and get delivered for free. Why pay $1,000 in Mexico when you can get it for free?" Rodriguez said.
LINK - Anchor babies
To what privileged class of people do I refer? I refer to the illegal aliens in the U.S.A.. An illegal alien can cross the border, have a baby five minutes later, and that baby is automatically declared a citizen of the U.S.A. Automatically! The illegal aliens don't have to go through any of the things that I did. They are exempt from all that. They are, in fact, rewarded for disobeying U.S. law by having their children granted automatic citizenship. In addition, the happy family is entitled to welfare benefits. And, illegal alien parents who have children born in the U.S. are seldom deported . That's why their children are called "anchor babies" - they anchor their families securely in the U.S.A.
|
|
| |
|
| Oct 22, 2006 @ 12:30 AM |
What To Do About Illegal Immigration... |
|
Martin666
Posts: 2,195
|
So if there are at least 3,000,000 anchor babies/kids/teens in the U.S.( guess, probably low?), and attached to these kids are parents and other siblings, some of whom may be citizens and some not, then what do you do with these 15-20,000,000 people?
Advocates of "deport 'em all" simply are not in touch with reality if they think they can actually send them all back to...wherever, especially given the "border baby" phenomenah. And if a plan is unrealistic and unworkable, then it's not a plan at all, and not worth wasting precious time even considering, because it won't contribute to the solution. That's the trouble I have with people like Tancredo.
We could amend the constitution: congress could propose the wording of the amendment and then pass it by two-thirds majority in both houses AND THEN send it to the states, where 75% of the states would also have to pass it either by convention or by the legislature before it would tke effect.
Yeah, like that's going to happen....
In all their millions, they have to be brought into the fold--legalized.
At the same time, clamp down on the flow of new immigrants coming in across the southern border. There's probably room here for a physical barrier.
|
| |
|
| Oct 22, 2006 @ 1:13 AM |
What To Do About Illegal Immigration...
|
|
RareQuestor
Posts: 2,652
|
Whenever people start talking about walls and security fences, I reflect on the fact that I do not know of a single nation (except for those in the middle of the oceans such as Fiji or Samoa) which does not have trouble controlling access to its borders. Even African nations in the middle of the Sahara desert contend with this problem. As Spongebob noted in a similar thread:
It's interesting that illegal immigration has become as large an issue as it has. The resident genius can call us racist if he wants but he's ignoring similar stories and feelings from Great britain, France, Spain, Italy, Australia, and even Russia. Clearly it's become a global issue and anyone who reads papers from outside the USA can see it.
This is no surprise at all and can be directly traced to overpopulation. Increasing deforestation and desertification (with all of their attendant economic consequences) is driving more and more people to migrate to arable land. The only way that we can solve this problem is to tackle the problem of overpopulation. It really doesn't matter how many walls or barriers we erect or how much money we throw at the problem: Desperation and greed will continue to drive people across the borders in search of a better future.
I would also point out that Berlin was divided by a wall for more than forty years and yet people still risked their lives to cross it. All the wall really accomplished was to destroy the economy and vitality of East Berlin since it blocked access to the creativity and dynamism of West Berlin.
|
|
| |
|
| Oct 22, 2006 @ 1:33 AM |
What To Do About Illegal Immigration... |
|
FeliciVagano
Posts: 2,152
|
I would also point out that Berlin was divided by a wall for more than forty years and yet people still risked their lives to cross it. All the wall really accomplished was to destroy the economy and vitality of East Berlin since it blocked access to the creativity and dynamism of West Berlin.
funny...I thought we were talking about how to secure our borders...and what to do about illegal immigration.. Berlin did show that a wall does work..but how many times does it have to be said (and ignored...) there are legal ways to traverse the border..no one wants to shut those down..just stop the illegal wave of people..
start by prosecuting people who hire people illegally.. simple to do... but just not a politically correct move.. ( can you say "campaign contributions"?)
|
| |
|
| Oct 22, 2006 @ 3:03 AM |
What To Do About Illegal Immigration...
|
|
dixiepixie
Posts: 869
|
Advocates of "deport 'em all" simply are not in touch with reality if they think they can actually send them all back to...wherever, especially given the "border baby" phenomenah. And if a plan is unrealistic and unworkable, then it's not a plan at all, and not worth wasting precious time even considering, because it won't contribute to the solution. That's the trouble I have with people like Tancredo.
I hope you are not advocating an amnesty program for all of your estimated 15 million illegals in this country (I think the number may be higher than that.) I don't see the American public ever going for that.
What needs to happen is those who have violated our laws and entered our country illegally need to leave the country and comply with our laws before coming back. Those who have been violating our laws should never be put ahead of those who have followed the laws and are on the waiting list to enter America legally.
Don't forget that the laws governing immigrants entering our country require that they have a sponsor who will sign their name and guarantee to cover all of the immigrant's and their family's needs. That means all -- including healthcare. That is not happening with these estimated 15 million or more illegals.
...."Every immigrant admitted to the United States must demonstrate to a Consular or Immigration Officer that he or she is not inadmissible on public charge grounds" ---- ( or must have a sponsor.)
...."To date, Federal agencies have announced the following four programs as means-tested public benefits: Food Stamps, Medicaid, Supplemental Security Income (SSI), and Temporary Assistance to Needy Families (TANF.)"....
....“Sponsors who fail to support the immigrants they sponsor can be sued by any Federal, State, or local agency or private entity that provides means-tested benefits, as well as by the immigrants they sponsored.”....
LINK - AFFIDAVIT OF SUPPORT
Under Section 213A of the United States Immigration and Nationality Act
As I've said before I have never heard anyone speak of rounding up and deporting every illegal in this country.
As a matter of fact the only people I hear mention it are those who want to give amnesty to illegals and use that comment in an attempt to muddy the waters rather than address the real issue of our government's failure to enforce immigration laws.
The Federal government needs to start enforcing existing law. In each state they need to begin consistently and steadily arresting business owners and managers who are violating the law and give them the allowable 10 year prison sentences. In addition, fine them the allowable $250,000 for each and every illegal immigrant they hire and I guarantee that word will spread. Business owners will stop hiring on their own. Without a means of survival those here illegally will begin to self deport. Those parents are not going to leave this country without their babies.
|
|
| |
|
| Oct 22, 2006 @ 8:56 AM |
What To Do About Illegal Immigration... |
|
Martin666
Posts: 2,195
|
Hi Dixie,
I guess that is more or less what I'm suggesting: amnesty for most, but not all, of the illegals in this country, provided they are "brought into the fold" in some fashion administratively...coupled with stopping the flow at the border. And I also agree with you that the 15m number is probably low. By the time you factor in all the kids, it may well be closer to 30,000,000, or 10% of the population of the United States, and probably >80% of them spanish speaking.
And regarding the statement to "deport 'em all"--ok, I'll go with what you say: that no one (outside of the crazies) is seriously proposing to deport 10% of the U.S. population. Assuming that's true, then decisions would need to be made to establish criteria for who is deported and who isn't among the illegal population...some would go and some would stay based on a list of criteria.
Ok--we're in agreement so far?
So the next question seems to be: what are the criteria for who goes and who stays?
Oops..no, not criteria yet--a couple more realities to take into account before criteria get set.
Reality #1: These people are on U.S. soil and therefore subject to the due process clause of the 14th amendment. Which means that they are entitled to a series of hearings related to their deportation. These hearings are backlogged now about 18 months, as best as I can determine. If a person is picked up, they either have to be released back to the community pending review, or they have to be incarcerated to insure their appearance. Right now, most that are picked up are released pending review--and then never seen again. So reality #1: due process.
Reality #2: Border babies. Somebody from the political right has to explain to me how this situation is going to be handled. The INS policy seems to be that, as a working assumption, every illegal will petition at least one child and/or spouse under Family Unity provisions. How is this to be dealt with? Closely allied with this are all those suggestions about limiting education, TANF, food stamps, medicaid, and other public assistances to illegals. OK-fine enough. But a lot of these services are child-based. For example, TANF funds aren't awarded to the parents, they're technically awarded to the child. So a "border baby" is as eleigible for these services as your child, or mine. The family's just along for the ride. So Reality #2: Family Unity.
Ok--maybe now some criteria:
1) There are about 500,000 illegals who have already gone through due process and been order deported, but who then never showed up for the plane ride. They're still out there, presumably. They can be apprehended and deported without running afoul of Reality #1. And let's be tough and assume that we won't allow Realiity #2 to intrude into this group of deportees--that if they have kids, tough. Either the kids go with them, are placed legally with relatives here, or are removed, placed into foster care, and adopted out. Tough crap, Juan.
2) Illegals who commit felonies in the U.S. can be picked up and incarcerated for the duration of the deportation hearing, then shipped out. This isn't that different from what's going on now. It's hard to find numbers, but in the mid to late 1990's there seemed to be about 70,000 people already in this category. Let's assume there are 100,000 now.
Dixie--do you have a couple of criteria?
|
| |
|
| Oct 22, 2006 @ 9:06 AM |
What To Do About Illegal Immigration...
|
|
twotall911
Posts: 13,048
|
666 
|
|
| |
|
| Oct 22, 2006 @ 9:22 AM |
What To Do About Illegal Immigration... |
|
SensualGemini
Posts: 6,916
|
Good Morning! ... A couple of you guys are up early and yes, even coherent! 
...Earlier, I was sidetracked on another thread, but thanks for the input last night on "Anchor Babies." Now, I am going to nurse some coffee and read it again.
...Martin, if you want to repost those ealier questions, we can "politely" post here.
|
| |
|
| Oct 22, 2006 @ 9:27 AM |
What To Do About Illegal Immigration...
|
|
Martin666
Posts: 2,195
|
Hi Rare,
I agree with you that there's something abhorant about a barrier along the southern border, and also that many other countries deal with illegal immigration (although probably not on the same scale that we do); that poor practices related to stewardship over the land drives deforestation, desertification, etc--which in turn drives migrations (now and always); and that political systems and human greed are often the actual culprits behind this whole mass of suffering.
But the simple fact is that we have a huge problem in the U.S. with an unsecured southern border, and it's only going to get worse as time goes on.
Do you agree that activities on the southern border have risen to the level that something has to be done?
To my way of thinking, doing nothing at all is unacceptable..like you say, it's only going to get worse. Under the Constitution, Congress is given the authority to secure the borders and, by my thinking again, therefore the responsibility to secure the borders in some reasonable fashion. That's not an unreasonable thing for any state to do.
What we seem to be down to is figuring out how that can be done in a way that is respectfull to all parties concerned--that's the american way. What can we do to solve a big part of the problem without running roughshod over either people or the environment?
Specific suggestions?
[Edited on 10/22/2006 9:33 AM]
|
|
| |
|
| Oct 22, 2006 @ 9:36 AM |
What To Do About Illegal Immigration... |
|
SensualGemini
Posts: 6,916
|
I would also point out that Berlin was divided by a wall for more than forty years and yet people still risked their lives to cross it. All the wall really accomplished was to destroy the economy and vitality of East Berlin since it blocked access to the creativity and dynamism of West Berlin. ....Rare, would you consider the economical woes of East Berlin as being isolated from West Berlin, or as much of Central Europe, isolated in general from the West and the rest of the world?
...For certain, people did risk their lives to cross the "wall," but mostly from East going West; to something better. Otherwise, it was family trying to visit their family on the East side and the risk was in returning.
Whenever people start talking about walls and security fences, I reflect on the fact that I do not know of a single nation (except for those in the middle of the oceans such as Fiji or Samoa) which does not have trouble controlling access to its borders. ...Of course... with the reason for the need of a wall to begin with, the further trouble to control will be there. It is also no great surprise, that the movement is towards the side with the "greener grass." I don't know any Americans, that are rushing to be illegal immigrants of Mexico; unless they are evading the law here.
|
| |
|
| Oct 22, 2006 @ 10:28 AM |
What To Do About Illegal Immigration...
|
|
SensualGemini
Posts: 6,916
|
What needs to happen is those who have violated our laws and entered our country illegally need to leave the country and comply with our laws before coming back. Those who have been violating our laws should never be put ahead of those who have followed the laws and are on the waiting list to enter America legally. ...Profound! ... So many with education, talent and a benefit to society have and are waiting through legal due process to come to the US. For the US to give the illegal immigrants precedence, is a total hypocrisy of our government and what it stands for.
...Immigration laws were set up appropriately and with the requirement of a sponsor, certainly limited the financial burden on the states. The cost to the Federal system has been minimal and actually, social security has seen an influx to duplicate account payments. Initially, the main burden seems to be on the states and local entities; but is that factual?
...What are they costing us in tax dollars, diluted values of employment, level of living standards, welfare, health, incarcaration, judicial and legal fees, deportation costs, police and crime rate costs, border patrol, immigration, etc..?
...At this point and by the variables of even how many exist, I don't believe that anyone has an actual accounting of the present burden by illegals. Possibly and as this thread seems to be heading; to define the positives and negatives of what illegal immigrants are imposing (or not), is seemingly paramount to the severity of actions to be considered.
...Our Federal government seems quite occupied with "other things" of priority at the moment. Personally, I don't think the first 700 miles of fence will be erected under this administration.
|
|
| |
|
| Oct 22, 2006 @ 10:45 AM |
What To Do About Illegal Immigration... |
|
Martin666
Posts: 2,195
|
I agree with pretty much everything SensG says, especially the part about how difficult it is to weigh the pluses and minuses of immigrant (illegal) participation in the economy. They cost us something to be here--but then they contribute something by working, too. And since they come here for work (largely), we have to assume that most of them work (if they can find it), otherwise they would self-deport. But how to figure it all out in the balance when we can't even accurately determine how many are in the country? Many pay taxes--perhaps most?--but many also work in the cash economy. But even the ones who work in the cash economy make a contribution, arguably, by keeping certain production costs down (which benefits us at the retail pricing level) and also by purchasing goods and services within the local american economy.
So if we can't accurately find the balance point between illegals being a drain versus a positive contribution to the economy, then don't we have to leave oipen the possibility that their presence may be a positive thing for the U.S. economy? Everyone hears the anecdotes about undocumented woman showing up at hospitals and draining service dollars, but we don't see the millions of undocumenteds that get up each day and go to work and pay taxes.
The idea of having a sponsor is a good one, too--that sponsor could be either a person or an organization, for example, a church. That's a smart plan.
Some type of an effective barrier along the border is probably also a good idea.
But here's the rub: what do we do with the upwards of 30m (by very rough estimate) who are already here illegally?
[Edited on 10/22/2006 11:18 AM]
|
| |
|
| Oct 22, 2006 @ 11:22 AM |
What To Do About Illegal Immigration...
|
|
8Knots
Posts: 2,710
|
"Gene Roddenberry" had the right idea on 'immigration' and social order 
Has anyone any idea on the statistics of immigration inmates along the border with CCA, etc?
You know most inmates are legally seen and processed within three days. Those that are longer usually have a good case to be within the USA. e.g. born in another country yet with US parents. (The sad cases that the US legal system screws up).
By the way, you should check out some of the immigration legal websites with reference to incarceration. Reminds me of the attorneys (sharks of the worst kind) around these centres making a fast buck at the expense of others. Charging $5000 to process a form that costs $120.
The Judges processing like a meat factory. The inemptitude of border patrol agents screwing peoples lives up because of inadequate training and knowledge of 'due legal process', etc...
The whole system is a mess! 
WITHOUT illegal immigration, the unemployment figures will sky rocket!!!! Its a great industry. Part of the mechanism of a sustainable economy.
We need illegals to keep jobs! Keeps the people happy!
|
|
| |
|
| Oct 22, 2006 @ 12:40 PM |
What To Do About Illegal Immigration... |
|
RareQuestor
Posts: 2,652
|
....Rare, would you consider the economical woes of East Berlin as being isolated from West Berlin, or as much of Central Europe, isolated in general from the West and the rest of the world?
Both circumstances were factors: Central Europe was isolated from the rest of the world and Berlin was intentionally isolated from the rest of Central Europe. (The Russians have never forgiven or forgotten German atrocities during World War II.) Before the wall was built, East Berlin suffered from a massive "brain drain." Tens of thousands of people (including the best and brightest) simply crossed the border to West Berlin from which they could enter the freedom of West Germany. The talent flowed only in one direction and East Berlin was a cultural and economic wasteland until the reunification of Germany. Even after the wall was erected, however, hundreds of people still risked their lives trying to cross it and scores were shot by the guards.
Social scientists refer to the phenomenon as "diffusion." The easier it is for people to interact with each other, the more rapidly a civilization advances. The ancient civilizations arose first by the great rivers--the Nile, the Tigris, the Indus, the Yangtze, etc--because such rivers are easy to traverse and people can move from one area to another more quickly. They bring new ideas, new beliefs and new customs with them which the natives modify to create yet another idea. Contrast this to South America where travel was exceedingly difficult due to the massive Amazon jungle or to Africa where the searing Sahara desert is an even more formidable barrier. Historically, nations with open borders--the USA or India, for example, have been more dynamic and prosperous than nations with strict border controls.
But the simple fact is that we have a huge problem in the U.S. with an unsecured southern border, and it's only going to get worse as time goes on.
Do you agree that activities on the southern border have risen to the level that something has to be done?
Of course. It just depends on what you want to accomplish. If you want to solve the problem, then you need to tackle the problems that plague Mexico and Central America in general--poverty, corruption, environmental destruction, etc. There are plenty of options if you just want to reduce the number of illegal immigrants, but ultimately you will have to pay for it. You must pay the salaries of the guards, the costs of administration, the expense of the necessary resources, etc. If you want to build a physical barrier, then you need to pay for the raw materials, maintenance, etc. All that you ultimately accomplish is to spend money to determine who can or cannot enter the country. It may be a worthy goal, but it is still negative in nature.
I am the first to concede that the current system needs to be overhauled. At the same time, I would remind all of you that we benefit from illegal immigration even as we strive to stop it. We benefit from their labor and skills and the interaction of our cultures. It does cost us in terms of increased expenses in health care, education and housing, et cetera, but at least we still benefit. I don't pretend to have any profound solutions to the problem. I just wish to point out that increasing border security is an ineffective, temporary solution at best and self-defeating at worst. In purely human terms, would it not be better to spend that money and those resources to improve life for all people rather than just a few?
|
| |
|
| Oct 22, 2006 @ 1:06 PM |
What To Do About Illegal Immigration...
|
|
8Knots
Posts: 2,710
|
In purely human terms, would it not be better to spend that money and those resources to improve life for all people rather than just a few?
Now we are getting somewhere
|
|
| |
|
| Oct 22, 2006 @ 2:18 PM |
What To Do About Illegal Immigration... |
|
twotall911
Posts: 13,048
|
We need to get you guys together and go to the whitehouse with the plans
|
| |
|
| Oct 22, 2006 @ 4:30 PM |
What To Do About Illegal Immigration...
|
|
SensualGemini
Posts: 6,916
|
Berlin was intentionally isolated from the rest of Central Europe ...Yes, I understood the mass emigration and why the wall was conceived. Not much has been mentioned that East Germany was isolated from going further East into Poland or South into Czechoslovakia.
All that you ultimately accomplish is to spend money to determine who can or cannot enter the country. It may be a worthy goal, but it is still negative in nature. ...Of course it is negative in nature, but what are the alternatives? Immigration laws are there for a reason. To come legally, immigrants must have a sponsor to guarantee their support in all facets and not become a liability for our resources to support.
...For others that wish to visit, like most all countries, there is the passport and visa process. Why should the US be expected to make exceptions?
...To open our borders; like they are closed now, but to open our borders, or create an amnesty program, will absolutely drain resources and lower the standard of living in the US.
...There is mention of illegal immigrants suddenly paying taxes. We have a poverty level support, that most immigrants will qualify for and use. Our struggling welfare system will suddenly have millions more come aboard and that money will come from the tax coffers from those with a higher standard of living.
...The only measurable tax payments would be in social security. For those now working, they are already doing this, with employer matching funds; even with a stolen SSN. So, I don't see that as an increase, or positive attribute. And there is the sales tax, but they are already paying that as well.
...Thus, there is no benefit for the Federal government, or the people, to grant amnesty to illegals on the basis of their somehow supporting our tax system. In fact, as it is, the Feds don't have to pay back the social security benefits; basically a surecharge for being here and working illegal. The Feds are not under pressure to "print" more money to support our welfare system, as most any alternative cost now is born by the states and local health facilities.
...I am sure that some areas benefit from immigrant labor. Yet the type of labor that is touted the most, is field labor and we have always had a migratory worker program; so that is BS. The other labor types, are those that will work for less, taking jobs from US citizens. Without a doubt, someone would be doing these jobs, even if the employer would have to pay a reasonable living wage.
...On the other hand, around here, green card folks make the same as anyone else and not any cheaper. They live 10 or so to a rental and you see them every week at the post office, sending money back home.
...We have highly educated people from many countries, here legally, that clean motel rooms for a living. The common issue, is the language barrier. The deal is, they came her legally and now must compete with illegals and that is not fair in any reasonable concept.
...I like our immigration laws as they are. Illegal is still illegal and if we leave our borders open, the average lifestyle of Americans will drop. If we create an amnesty program, lifestyle will drop and further deplete our struggling welfare system.
...The temporary worker's permit program seems the most viable, reasonable and actually, something that has always been there; called migratory workers. Illegals have bypassed this and now want carta blanche and that is ludicrous. Our politicians need to get some balls and understand our laws are for everyone, not what they choose for more votes.
...In conclusion, our government knows everything about you and I, but nothing about illegal immigrants of all nationalities. Without a doubt, many are criminals and some are terrorists. They do not show up in the census, but use our resources at will. The borders need closed and there has to be an accounting, Anyone that wishes to stay, can get a worker's permit to do so. Anything less and they are now US criminals and need deported. If it is 15 or 30 million, so what? They should have been taking care of this all along and now time to pay the piper.
|
|
| |
|
| Oct 22, 2006 @ 8:03 PM |
What To Do About Illegal Immigration... |
|
Martin666
Posts: 2,195
|
Hi Rare,
Regarding taking action on the southern border, you wrote:
[I]"Of course. It just depends on what you want to accomplish. If you want to solve the problem, then you need to tackle the problems that plague Mexico and Central America in general--poverty, corruption, environmental destruction, etc.
I guess I disagree that these are a part of the solution to the problems we have today on the southern border. Don't get me wrong--I fully understand that the issues you mention are causative, along with many others, of the immigration problem. But to attempt to solve the issues of poverty, poor governance, bad education, corrupt and inefficient economic systems and a host of other problems in mexico and Central America as an aid to slowing the flow of immigrants today is not a practical solution. It's akin to coming across a burning auto wreck on the side of the road, with people trapped inside the car, and then deciding that the best way to help is go to Detroit and have the auto engineers design safer gas tanks. It doesn't address the issue at hand, but in an abstract and remote kind of way it is a "solution."
In any event, we can't even solve these issues in our own country, let alone in all of mexico and Central America, so I'm not sure it's practical from that perspective either.It's a good idea, Rare--but how practical and proximate is it to the problem?
I've always thought that the best way to approach a social problem is to go after the issue at hand in the first place, solve as much of that as you can to stabilize the situation, and then move one place down the line to the next causative --immediatly causative-- factor in the domino line leading up to the event. So--get the people out of the burning car, then go in search of auto engineers.
The fewer and more proximate causative explanations a phenomenah depends on, the greater the liklihood that a solution can be found-- lex parsimoniae.
If the problem is too many people coming across the border, then solve the problem at that point where it occurs--at the border. From there, start looking at more complex, larger issues that might drive the the issue several dominos away.
And consider "social pushback." A country like Mexico has little incentive to solve the economic and social problems faced by it's people for so long as the safety valve of an open american border continues to siphon off social pressure...the disgruntled leave. But decrease the outward flow by restricting the border, and Mexico now has to deal with the resultant buildup in internal social pressure: our solution (securing the border) created a "push back" into Mexico that could ultimately cause Mexico to act in way that is helpful to solving our own problem more fully.
Securing the border doesn't mean ending immigration, it simply means structuring it. That's a reasonable thing for a country to do. Every country does it. No country can fail to do it. Fair rules at the border infringe on no one's civil rights.
"I am the first to concede that the current system needs to be overhauled. "
How? Specifically, how would you deal with the 15-30,000,000 illegals already here?
|
| |
|
|
|
|