| Feb 24, 2007 @ 5:43 PM |
Poverty
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eastham
Posts: 7,907
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Record numbers of Americans are living in extreme poverty, earning around $5,200 per year for an individual and less than $9,400 for a family of 4.
http://www.rawstory.com/showarticle.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bradenton.com%2Fmld%2Fbradenton%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2F16760637.htm
The vast gulf in this country between the very rich and the very poor is widening and deepening. This type of economic situation is not without consequence. Look back to our own civil unrest at the turn of the last century, which would have been worse without the efforts of Teddy Roosevelt. Look to what existed in Russia before the Revolution and what made the Nazis so initially attractive to the broader German populace.
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| Feb 24, 2007 @ 5:45 PM |
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MarysPlace
Posts: 2,930
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Look to what existed in Russia before the Revolution
You're not serious, are you? Have you any idea what existed in Russia AFTER the Revolution?
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| Feb 24, 2007 @ 5:48 PM |
Poverty
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eastham
Posts: 7,907
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Yes, I do and that's why we don't want the situation, which existed before the revolution, as we know where it leads.
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| Feb 24, 2007 @ 6:36 PM |
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MarysPlace
Posts: 2,930
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I don't know if I should mention this, but the revolution was the communists' doing... In today's liberals I recognize so much of that same old communist rhetoric that it scares the living daylights out of me.
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| Feb 24, 2007 @ 7:03 PM |
Poverty
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eastham
Posts: 7,907
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From A History of Russia (Third Edition) by Nicholas V. Riasanovsky:
"The collapse of the Romanov autocracy in March 1917 was one of the most leaderless, spontaneous, anonymous revolutions of all time. While almost every thoughtful observer in Russia in the winter of 1916-17 foresaw the likelihood of the crash of the existing regime no one, even among the revolutionary leaders, realized that the strikes and bread riots which broke out in Petrograd on March 8 would culminate in the mutiny of the garrison and the overthrow of the government four days later."
To believe that the Bolsheviks were responsible for the Russian Revolution is to believe Communist myth. The Bolsheviks triumphed in the end only by luck. Their opposition, while numerous, was poorly organized, apathetic and weakened by war and deprevation. The Provisional Government made many reforms, but its insistence that it continue to fight Germany and its refusal to recognize the economic downturn of the country and the mood of its desperate, starving, illiterate people could lead nowhere but to catastrophe. Lenin prevailed not because he persuaded the people on the merits of Kant, Fichte, Hegel and Marx, but because he promised to get them out of the war and put bread on their tables.
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| Feb 24, 2007 @ 7:25 PM |
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dixiepixie
Posts: 869
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The article doesn't mention what the income levels of those who earn the low amounts rise to when they participate in Government subsidized housing, medical care, food stamps, and other services.
Why am I not surprised?
From the article
At the same time, low-skilled immigrants with impoverished family members are increasingly drawn to the South and Midwest to work in the meatpacking, food processing and agricultural industries.
These and other factors such as increased fluctuations in family incomes and illegal immigration have helped push 43 percent of the nation's 37 million poor people into deep poverty - the highest rate in at least 32 years.
I see that my state, North Carolina, is reported to have 523,511in severe poverty. Other sources have stated that North Carolina has as many as a half million illegals.
From the article
States with the most people in severe poverty:
California - 1.9 million
Texas - 1.6 million
New York - 1.2 million
Florida - 943,670
Illinois - 681,786
Ohio - 657,415
Pennsylvania - 618,229
Michigan - 576,428
Georgia - 562,014
North Carolina - 523,511
Source: U.S. Census Bureau
---
LINK Bear Stearns - The Underground Labor Force
This report states that four to six million jobs have shifted to the underground market and the expenses associated are potentially $30 billion dollars per year while the U S may be forgoing $35 billion dollars a year from income tax.
Evidence beyond Anecdotal
............"The strongest evidence supporting our theory that the actual illegal population is double the consensus estimates lies within several micro trends at the community level. We see very dramatic increases in services required in communities that have become gateways for immigration. States with high populations of undocumented immigrants have experienced extra demand for public services. The top nine states California, Texas, Florida, New York, Illinois, New Jersey, Arizona, Georgia and North Carolina account for approximately 50% of the undocumented population. Although the federal government has the sole authority to govern immigration flows, the responsibility for providing support to legal and illegal immigrants rests within the state and local governments
"...........
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| Feb 24, 2007 @ 7:39 PM |
Poverty
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MarysPlace
Posts: 2,930
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Lenin prevailed not because he persuaded the people on the merits of Kant, Fichte, Hegel and Marx, but because he promised to get them out of the war and put bread on their tables.
He sure did... Uh-huh. I wonder if you've visited the USSR or any of the Eastern bloc during the cold war?
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| Feb 24, 2007 @ 7:59 PM |
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eastham
Posts: 7,907
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The public assistance programs were reduced dramatically by the Clinton welfare reform bill. TANF, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, the successor to the old Aid to Families with Dependent Children is now limited federally to 60 months lifetime (5 years lifetime) with many states mandating lower numbers of assisted months.
In NYC, 65% of families living below poverty pay more than 50% of their income in rent. Furthermore, the shelter limit is 3 out of 36 months of eligibility for individuals who are not on disability and therefore "eligible to work." Given that the average wait in NYC for a hearing in front of an administrative law judge at the Social Security Administration for either SSDI or SSI is 3 years, for the most part you receive little or no housing assistance. At the end of 3 years, if successful a family can look forward to $604 from Social Security.
The waiting list for the new voucher program is in double digits -- that's years, not months.
And by the way, the welfare reform bill denied participation in most of these programs to both legal and illegal immigrants.
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| Feb 24, 2007 @ 8:01 PM |
Poverty
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eastham
Posts: 7,907
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Yep, I've done a lot of travelling in my life, Mary.
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| Feb 24, 2007 @ 8:33 PM |
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foxefire
Posts: 79
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Get out your hanky...it's time once again to feel sorry for all of the supposed Americans "living in poverty."
If you get beyond the biased media's hysterical headlines, let's apply a little common sense. First of all, according to the government, you could have a net worth of over ten million dollars, own two houses, have three cars and because you only earned a few thousand dollars in income last year, you would be living in poverty. Does Terreeeeza Heinz-Kerry draw a salary? Maybe she's living in poverty too.
When the government measures poverty they're only concerned with paychecks, not with what you have already earned. The government doesn't look at your bank accounts, your balance sheets or that jewelry hanging around your neck. Only your paychecks.
Let's say you are a remarkably successful stock broker. You decide to take a year off and travel the country in your $800,000 Blue Bird Wanderlodge motor home. Guess what? For that year, our government says you're "living in poverty."
It started back during the LBJ "Great Society" years. Johnson wanted to create a method of measuring poverty that would provide a continued excuse for expanding the scope and nature of Johnson's war on poverty programs. That method of measuring poverty -- by only counting income -- is still alive today, and it is still being used by government hacks as a reason for ever more government and ever more government spending.
The average American defined as "poor" by the federal government enjoys a higher standard of living than the average European; not the average poor European ... the average European. It's a scam, folks. A scam to enable more government. If a person has a roof over their head, food in their cupboard, a television set, a washer and dryer, a microwave, air conditioning and a car. That ain't poverty. Just more leftist fantasies and imagined "emergencies" designed to create the need for more government.
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| Feb 24, 2007 @ 8:35 PM |
Poverty
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irish20835
Posts: 1,224
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so lets investigate why poverty is so prominate ....
imho...we are a socitey of lazy swine who have found it eaiser to let the government pay our bills because we just don't feel like working .
then we raise our kids teaching em how to cheat the system .
Clinton did very little good in office im my opinon but one of the things i agree is welfare reform . made people get off their asses and get a job and or education
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| Feb 24, 2007 @ 8:40 PM |
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LipGlossQueen9
Posts: 10,954
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If a person has a roof over their head, food in their cupboard, a television set, a washer and dryer, a microwave, air conditioning and a car.
Yeah, what do you call it when a mother has to work two jobs, a father has to work one steady job and be a freelance journalist and work with two bands on the side, and when you can't go grocery shopping for three weeks? Surely you can't call these people lazy?
I've got a friend who lives only with her mother and her mother always has a job. They have to scrimp just to stay "comfortable".
In fact, I've got a lot of friends like this. I don't think you can define poverty by what people have.
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| Feb 24, 2007 @ 8:41 PM |
Poverty
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sealacamp
Posts: 3,681
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Thanks forxfire that is right on. You know for someone to have done a lot of travelling and still believe that there are many many living in poverty here makes me think that person was travelling with their eyes closed. In comparison with the majority of the world there is no poverty here. It is relative and only in comparison to what is here. Not to mention if you visit many poor people in the south they will be living in a shack with a brand new cadillac in the front yard. If you ask me most of these poverty stricken people just have their priorities in the wrong place. And did those statistics mention anything about those that would rather stay high than to try to do something with their lives?
S
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| Feb 24, 2007 @ 8:42 PM |
Poverty |
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Strandedboarder
Posts: 440
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(passes eastham a band-aid for her bleeding heart...)
I grew up in the projects and for my entire childhood my mom was on welfare. I was pretty damn poor. But I realized early in my life that the only person that was going to take care of me was me. That’s the model of this country and I’ve embraced it. It’s the model that gives people the opportunity to go as far as they possibly can. It’s what’s created record number of millionaires in the last decade. So if you think your tirade is going to make me think, “let’s drive reform!” while I’m driving my Lexus, or, “it’s time for change!” when I check the Baume & Mercier on my wrist…you are definitely mistaken.
Growing up I saw so many kids screw-up their futures by having kids when they couldn’t even support themselves! Stupid! And now I’m supposed to pay for that stupidity? That’s like being punished for being successful! It’s un-American.
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| Feb 24, 2007 @ 9:01 PM |
Poverty
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MarysPlace
Posts: 2,930
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a father has to work one steady job and be a freelance journalist and work with two bands on the side, and when you can't go grocery shopping for three weeks? Surely you can't call these people lazy?
I call that "father should get off his ass and get a REAL job". With the wife and kids in tow, rock'n'roll times are over, baby.
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| Feb 24, 2007 @ 9:01 PM |
Poverty |
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dixiepixie
Posts: 869
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eastham
And by the way, the welfare reform bill denied participation in most of these programs to both legal and illegal immigrants.
 Just like there is a law against entering our country illegally and against hiring someone who is in this country illegally and against identity theft and against tax evasion.
Do you honestly think there are not legal loopholes or even illegal ways to get around that?
My response to a similar statement in another thread.
........"In every state there are holes in the rules. Adults may or may not qualify but their children will. When those services, food coupons, subsidized housing or asisstance of any type comes into the household the illegal adult will still benefit. Also, Illegal Immigrants who attend school qualify for free lunches and any other free benefit associated with school that American Citizens get.
For example in California.......
LINK California Immigrant Welfare Collaborative...Food Stamps
IMMIGRANTS WHO CAN RECEIVE FOOD STAMPS
Can immigrants get food stamps in California?
Yes. In California, “qualified” immigrants and a few other immigrants who meet the program’s
requirements can get food stamps. California’s program is available to these immigrants regardless of
when they entered the United States.
FAMILIES WITH UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS
I am undocumented but my children are citizens. Can I get food stamps for them?
Yes. Even though you cannot get food stamps for yourself, you should be able to get food stamps for your children if they are U.S. citizens or eligible immigrants. Even if you or your family members can't get food stamps, you can still get school lunch and breakfast, WIC, and go to soup kitchens, community food banks, meals on wheels and other food programs.
I am undocumented. Will I be reported to the immigration authorities if I apply for
food stamps for my children?
The food stamps office only has to report you to the immigration authorities if it has proof (such as a final order of deportation) that you are in the country unlawfully.
You should not tell anyone that you or someone in your family is undocumented. If you are not seeking food stamps for yourself, you do not need to give information about your immigration status, and should not present a false or invalid Social
Security Number.
But you will need to give information about your earnings or any property you may
have, like a car. You should tell your food stamp worker that you are not trying to get benefits for yourself, and that you are not a “qualified” or “eligible” immigrant.
“Not qualified” or “not eligible” is not the same as undocumented.
Remember, it is illegal for the government to treat you differently just because of the way you look or because you are from a particular country. Your caseworkers are not supposed to ask you any further questions about your immigration status once you tell them that you are not applying for food stamps for yourself. If you have questions, call one of the numbers below to find out how to get help.
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LINK California Immigrant Welfare Collaborative Government subsidized Dental Care
Will I be reported to the immigration authorities if I apply for Medi-Cal?
No. If you are seeking only pregnancy-related or emergency services, you do not need to say anything about your immigration status or Social Security number. You will need to give information about your income, and whether you live and intend to stay in California (or came here to work or seek a job).
You do not need to tell anyone that you or someone in your family is ndocumented, and should not give a false Social Security number to the agency.
If you are seeking “full-scope” services under Medi-Cal, you will need to answer questions about your immigration status and Social Security number.
Information about Medi-Cal recipients is private and can only be used to make sure you are eligible for services. Immigration authorities can’t use this information against you unless a criminal violation (such as fraud) is involved.
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California is only one example....but even with all that my main point in the previous post was that the American citizens whose income is so low that it falls within the severe poverty range are being adversely impacted from the devaluation of wages, competition for housing, and loss of jobs to illegals.
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| Feb 24, 2007 @ 9:10 PM |
Poverty
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jamminjerry
Posts: 4,085
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hmm, i would surmise that living in poverty is a choice, just as almost everything in America is. Praise God. i live here because i decide who i touch my knee for. as for the simians, ask them why they do not crawl or even perhaps claw, their way up. we be jammin
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| Feb 24, 2007 @ 9:13 PM |
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eastham
Posts: 7,907
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Takes StrandedBoarder's bandaid and hands him a bottle of anti-freeze in return.
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| Feb 25, 2007 @ 12:23 AM |
Poverty
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SunBabe
Posts: 12,279
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Once again it's obvious that some of YOU don't read or comprehend the material before spouting your mouths off. 
#1 -- the article focused on EXTREME poverty, and gave the figures of what EXTREMESEVERE means (it is NOT the so-called national poverty line nor is it the figure used to determine income tax exemption)
#2 -- the article quoted from a number of different reports, not just one "study" or source.
#3. -- the topic was to bring attention to the fact that poverty/extremes is often at the crux of civil unrest and revolution/upheaval.
The Census Bureau's Survey of Income and Program Participation shows that, in a given month, only 10 percent of severely poor Americans received Temporary Assistance for Needy Families in 2003 - the latest year available - and that only 36 percent received food stamps.
Over the last two decades, America has had the highest or near-highest poverty rates for children, individual adults and families among 31 developed countries, according to the Luxembourg Income Study, a 23-year project that compares poverty and income data from 31 industrial nations.
"It's shameful," said Timothy Smeeding, the former director of the study and the current head of the Center for Policy Research at Syracuse University. "We've been the worst performer every year since we've been doing this study."
With the exception of Mexico and Russia, the U.S. devotes the smallest portion of its gross domestic product to federal anti-poverty programs, and those programs are among the least effective at reducing poverty, the study found. Again, only Russia and Mexico do worse jobs.
One in three Americans will experience a full year of extreme poverty at some point in his or her adult life, according to long-term research by Mark Rank, a professor of social welfare at the University of Wisconsin, Madison.
An estimated 58 percent of Americans between the ages of 20 and 75 will spend at least a year in poverty, Rank said. Two of three will use a public assistance program between ages 20 and 65, and 40 percent will do so for five years or more. One in three WON'T use a public assistance program.
These estimates apply only to non-immigrants. If illegal immigrants were factored in, the numbers would be worse, Rank said.
Not everyone who lives in poverty, whether it be labelled "extreme poverty" or "national poverty level" or "exceptionally low income" is there by CHOICE. Shit happens and ALL people in those catagories should NOT be lumped together!  And not EVERY person with those low incomes even QUALIFIES for public "programs", not EVERY person would take a plug nickle of your precious tax dollars even IF they could. So those who have never faced financial difficulties should STFU unless YOU have tried on EVERYBODY'S shoes. 
...and no, I don't feel that illegal immigrants should qualify for federal/state welfare/assistance/medical programs, but that's a different issue. 
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| Feb 25, 2007 @ 1:05 AM |
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dixiepixie
Posts: 869
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...and no, I don't feel that illegal immigrants should qualify for federal/state welfare/assistance/medical programs,
We can agree on that
.....but that's a different issue.
I disagree with that statement.
The issue of the adverse impact of illegals in setting a standard for devalued wages in many jobs, competition for employment, housing (causing housing costs to rise) medical, educational and other resources on an already vulnerable segment of our population is somethig I consider relevant when discussing poverty levels of American citizens. It can be a major factor in tipping the scales for those who are already constantly struggling to keep their heads above water with no safety net.
[Edited on 2/25/2007 3:02 AM]
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