| Apr 4, 2007 @ 9:02 AM |
civil rights vs public safety
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ToucherinSparks
Posts: 6,699
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I came across this story, and it brings up an interesting question. What's more important, an individual's freedom and civil rights or the safety of the public?
On one hand, you have the govt snatching a guy off the street and locking him up in solitary confinement, possibly for the rest of his life, without any criminal charges or trial.
On the other hand, you have some jackass who has an extremely contagious, untreatable, and deadly disease who thinks it's just fine to go out in public and spread it around. He knows what he's doing and doesn't care.
You decide....
TB victim is locked up in Arizona
By CHRIS KAHN, Associated Press Writer
Mon Apr 2, 2:22 PM ET
PHOENIX - Behind the county hospital's tall cinderblock walls, a
27-year-old tuberculosis patient sits in a jail cell equipped with a
ventilation system that keeps germs from escaping. ADVERTISEMENT
Robert Daniels has been locked up indefinitely, perhaps for the rest of
his life, since last July. But he has not been charged with a crime.
Instead, he suffers from an extensively drug-resistant strain of
tuberculosis, or XDR-TB. It is considered virtually untreatable.
County health authorities obtained a court order to lock him up as a
danger to the public because he failed to take precautions to avoid
infecting others. Specifically, he said he did not heed doctors'
instructions to wear a mask in public.
"I'm being treated worse than an inmate," Daniels said in a telephone
interview with The Associated Press last month. "I'm all alone. Four
walls. Even the door to my room has been locked. I haven't seen my
reflection in months."
Though Daniels' confinement is extremely rare, health experts say it is
a situation that U.S. public health officials may have to confront more
and more because of the spread of drug-resistant TB and the emergence of
diseases such as
SARS and avian flu in this increasingly interconnected world.
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| Apr 4, 2007 @ 9:08 AM |
civil rights vs public safety |
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Blondino
Posts: 4,553
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Need to know more about it ..  I will read up the bigger picture
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| Apr 4, 2007 @ 9:17 AM |
civil rights vs public safety
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Gone_Feral
Posts: 194
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People have been tried, convicted, and locked up for intentionally or negligently spreading HIV. I would say that the same standard would apply in this case. He has to remain free until he actually infects someone. And even then he should be tried and convicted before being submitted to indefinite confinement.
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| Apr 4, 2007 @ 9:30 AM |
civil rights vs public safety |
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 18,602
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Can you spell leper colony? Boy, Hollywood could have a field day with this...more and more drug-resistant strains of bacteria developing, as we blithely go for our antibiotic shots when we have a sniffle. In order to protect those who are so far uninfected, we'd need to set aside islands (maybe Molokai again?), where the unfortunates can go to die...until they breed and eventually bring forth mutant offspring who are immune to these diseases and want to go forth into the wide world of uninfected people.....never mind, I think I have to go write something.
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| Apr 4, 2007 @ 9:37 AM |
civil rights vs public safety
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Martin666
Posts: 2,195
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It is a curious situation. There has to be a court order involved here somewhere, the same as when people are confined to mental hospitals against their will without criminal charges, just on the basis that there current condition represents a threat to self and public. Viewed in that way, it doesn't seem so out of line. Don't know...
[Edited on 4/4/2007 10:00 AM]
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| Apr 4, 2007 @ 9:48 AM |
civil rights vs public safety |
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spongebob777
Posts: 7,904
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It's a tricky situation but I think the welfare of the many outweigh the civil rights of one man. After all, if he would wear the surgical mask in public he wouldn't be in this situation.
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| Apr 4, 2007 @ 9:50 AM |
civil rights vs public safety
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JeansToTight
Posts: 345
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If the "one man " won't wear a mask to keep others from being infected ,,,,,then yes ,,they should do something about it ,,,,,Not sure jail is the right answer here..
Do a house arrest or something .
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| Apr 4, 2007 @ 9:55 AM |
civil rights vs public safety |
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graywolf
Posts: 44,515
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I did read that this person chose to ignore the Dr's advise and was not taking the steps to ensure that he did not spread the TB strain. I do not think jail is the right answer but perhaps some tupe of hospital confinement would be more appropriate or as someone else wrote maybe house arrest if that could be enforced.
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| Apr 4, 2007 @ 10:27 AM |
civil rights vs public safety
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JeansToTight
Posts: 345
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But if they can not prove he has infected anyone ,,,wheres the crime????
I think ,someone has a good lawsuit ,,,,,,sure ,,,hes affected ,,but untill he infected someone ,,,he has not done anything wrong ,,,as sad as it seems ,,,,he dose not belong in jail
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| Apr 4, 2007 @ 10:35 AM |
civil rights vs public safety |
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spongebob777
Posts: 7,904
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I think it's interesting that he chose to come to the united states. The story doesn't mention it but I've seen others that say he's a Russian citizen or an American expat.
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| Apr 4, 2007 @ 10:36 AM |
civil rights vs public safety
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Blondino
Posts: 4,553
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More on the case
Daniels has been living alone in a four-bed cell in Ward 41, a section of the hospital reserved for sick criminals. He said sheriff's deputies will not let him take a shower — he cleans himself with wet wipes — and have taken away his television, radio, personal phone and computer. His only visitors are masked medical staff members who come in to give him his medication.
The ventilation system draws out the air and filters it to capture the bacteria-laden droplets he expels when he coughs. The filters are periodically burned.
Daniels said he is taking medication and feeling a lot better. His lawyer would not discuss his prognosis. Daniels plans to ask for his release at a court hearing late this month.
Daniels lived in Russia for 15 years and returned to the United States last year after he was diagnosed. He said he thought he would get better treatment here, and hoped eventually to bring his wife and children from Russia. He said he briefly worked in an office in Arizona for a chemical company before he was put away.
He said that he lost 50 pounds and was constantly coughing and that authorities locked him up after they discovered he had walked into a convenience store without a mask.
"Where I come from, the doctors don't wear masks," he said. "Plus, I was 26 years old, you know.Nobody told me how TB works and stuff."
County health officials and Daniels' lawyer, Robert Blecher, would not discuss details of the case. But in general, England said the county would not force someone into quarantine unless the patient could not or would not follow doctor's orders.
"It's very uncommon that someone would both not want to take treatment and will willingly put others at risk," England said. "It's only those very uncommon incidents where we have to use legal authority through the courts to isolate somebody."
University of Pennsylvania medical ethicist Art Caplan said Maricopa County health officials were confronted with the same ethical dilemma that communities wrestled with generations ago when dealing with leprosy and smallpox.
"Drug-resistant TB, or drug-resistant staph infections, or pandemic flu will raise these questions again," Caplan said. "We may find ourselves dipping into our history to answer them."
Daniels said he realizes now that he endangered the public. But "I thought I'd come to a country where I'd finally be treated like a person, and bam, here I am."
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| Apr 4, 2007 @ 10:53 AM |
civil rights vs public safety |
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MarysPlace
Posts: 2,930
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They should keep him right where he is.
"I didn't know I could spread it." No shit! "Gee, officer I had no idea this gun would fire if I pull the trigger, moreover I honestly didn't know a bullet could kill." COME ON!
The idiot knew fully well that he needs to protect others by wearing a mask and he chose not to. End of story.
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| Apr 4, 2007 @ 10:29 PM |
civil rights vs public safety
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ToucherinSparks
Posts: 6,699
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I think this guy is another Typhoid Mary, he's sick, knows he's gonna die, and wants to take as many people with him as possible.
As for the person who says he hasn't infected anyone yet, he may have infected thousands. TB is airborne via the germs when he coughs, and it takes a while to develop symptoms, so who knows how many people he's already spread this to.
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| Apr 5, 2007 @ 7:12 AM |
civil rights vs public safety |
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eastham
Posts: 7,907
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I think this guy is another Typhoid Mary, he's sick, knows he's gonna die, and wants to take as many people with him as possible.
While it is difficult to understand this man's motivations or perhaps levels of denial, comparisons with Typhoid Mary was not good one. Mary Mallon was a unique case, a totally asymptomatic carrier. Unlike this guy, she never lost weight, never experienced any symptoms whatsoever.
While the treatment of this man is extreme, TB and HIV transmission are very different, which is why you had separate TB hospitals back in the old days.
Another issue to consider is the health and welfare of the other people at the jail -- people working there, visiting, making deliveries, as well as inmates or the recently accused, but not convicted. What is the air filtration system like in this place? Have they arithmetically raised the risk of exposure for these men and women? There are special rooms in most hospitals, with special ventilation systems, etc. The personnel in charge of treating the patient wear special garb and have a series of decontamination procedures, etc to follow.
[Edited on 4/5/2007 7:56 AM]
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| Apr 7, 2007 @ 11:55 AM |
civil rights vs public safety
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ravensday
Posts: 388
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After the 1st Gulf War soldiers were comming back from Iraq and Kuwait with positve TB test results. The military did not inform the family members right away. I was at Ft. Stewart, GA when my ex-brother-in-laws unit returned. I had both my kids with me. We stayed in GA for about 2 weeks. My son was 5 and my daughter was 4. My son had to get a TB test to start school. His test came back positive. The whole family had to be tested. Everyone that my son had come into contact with had to be tested. He was the only one who was positive. The health department got involved and he was treated with 6 months of INH treatments. They later determined that it might be that he was allergic to the TB test medication. But, we also later found out that there were the soliders who came back that were also testing positive. These soliders were out and about at the PX and other places on post. Who knows where my son came into contact with this. Or like one doc said it could be an allergy. He can not have a TB test now and has to have yearly chest X-rays. He is 19 now and has never shown a sign of developing TB.
So I think that this man should be kept locked up. Its a matter of public safety.
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| Apr 7, 2007 @ 5:39 PM |
civil rights vs public safety |
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Always_Striving
Posts: 8,794
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he's sick, knows he's gonna die, and wants to take as many people with him as possible.
If he thinks that way then he need to be burned alive while conscious
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| Apr 9, 2007 @ 11:24 AM |
civil rights vs public safety
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juzhey
Posts: 565
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Jeans - But if they can not prove he has infected anyone ,,,wheres the crime????
I think this goes along the same idea as arresting and locking up drunk drivers whether they run anyone down or not. And since he won’t wear the mask, how does anyone know he hasn’t already infected anyone? What is the incubation period etc for this virus?
“His lawyer would not discuss his prognosis.” Speaks volumes to me. IF this attorney had any info in favor of his client, you know he would be rushing it to the AP Wire as fast as he could to drum up sympathy.
“England said the county would not force someone into quarantine unless the patient could not or would not follow doctor's orders.” Which this man didn’t.
“But "I thought I'd come to a country where I'd finally be treated like a person, and bam, here I am." This line was fairly disgusting to me. Comes here and doesn’t care enough about anyone else to simply wear a mask, and then complains about how he isn’t being treated as nicely as he would like. Reminds me of all those illegal immigrants marching and waving flags protesting the fact that we don’t want them breaking our laws. Once again, if it is so bad here, let him go back to Russia.
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| Apr 9, 2007 @ 11:29 AM |
civil rights vs public safety |
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vicryder
Posts: 831
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The OP stated that county authorities obtained a court order.
If this guy doesn't voluntarily wear a mask, then he is guilty of attempted murder.
Made even more heinous by slow death.
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