| Apr 13, 2007 @ 12:12 AM |
Liberal Communists
|
|
kjac
Posts: 8,163
|
Exactly what is a liberal communist? Admittedly, I don't know much about the label of liberal, but wouldn't the two contradict each other? I'd love to hear from someone out there who might be one, or has labeled someone one.
|
|
  |
|
| Apr 13, 2007 @ 12:21 AM |
Liberal Communists |
|
kattsmeow
Posts: 22,628
|
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Italy
|
| |
|
| Apr 13, 2007 @ 12:30 AM |
Liberal Communists
|
|
kjac
Posts: 8,163
|
Thanks for the link, but I already know what a communist is. I'm asking about a liberals. How are they related to Communists? Doesn't a lot of their views conflict with communism?
|
|
| |
|
| Apr 13, 2007 @ 12:49 AM |
Liberal Communists |
|
Say_Yes
Posts: 2,225
|
In some ways, communism is liberalism taken to an extreme. One of the cornerstones of liberal thought is the distribution of wealth. Liberals feel that the distribution of wealth is unfair and that the government should take from those who have accumulated wealth and give it to those who are poor. In communism, there is no rich and poor. All people have equal wealth (or poverty as the case may be). As everyone has the same wealth, then this would be fair.
One of the key differences in conservatives and liberals is the concept of equality. For a conservative, equality means that someone has equal opportunity. The government will give everyone a certain level of access to various goods and services, from which the average person should be able to build a successful life. For example, if you are accused of a crime and you are poor, then the government will pay for an attorney to represent you in court. Of course, if you are rich, then you can buy a very skilled, competent atty., your chance of acquittal is much high. If the guy that is representing you is fresh out of law school, with little to no experience, time or resources with which to defend your case, then your chance of acquittal is much lower. After all, do you think that OJ would have been acquitted of murder charges if he had a public defender? What about the three lacrosse players from Duke that were accused of rape? Somehow I think that they would be looking at a long time in prison, if their families had not spent millions on their defense.
To a liberal, equality is not derived from opportunity, but rather results. If a class/category of the population is demonstrated to not to have the same outcome in life, then this is not fair. For example, all NASCAR drivers are white males (okay, Montoya is Hispanic). As such, this is not fair. Half of the drivers should be female, and approximately 30% should be members of a minority, as this matches the demographics of the overall population. Since this is not the case, then NASCAR must be discriminating on the basis or race and gender.
By the way, do not confuse communism (a form of ownership & property rights) with that of democracy. Just because the nations that have historically had communist governments have had single party systems, it does not follow that this is required. You can have a two, three or 20 party system of elected government with communism, just as you can have a capitalist society in dictatorship or monarchy. One is a system of government, while the other deals exclusively with property rights and the distribution of wealth.
|
| |
|
| Apr 13, 2007 @ 1:09 AM |
Liberal Communists
|
|
atropos9119
Posts: 178
|
"from each according to his means; to each according to his needs"
Right out of the Communist Manifesto.
dunno why the C-word started getting thrown around again, thought that was pretty much a dead issue, seeing as how communism, like nearly every other ism out there has been sunk by running aground on the shoal of Human Nature.
|
|
| |
|
| Apr 13, 2007 @ 1:14 AM |
Liberal Communists |
|
ravensday
Posts: 388
|
Hell I am glad someone explained all this. I really did not understand the whole thing. And I guess I am not a liberal, cause if I got money and someone tries to take to give to someone else who aint got as much then they are gonna get one hell of a ass wuppin.! 
|
| |
|
| Apr 13, 2007 @ 1:18 AM |
Liberal Communists
|
|
Say_Yes
Posts: 2,225
|
dunno why the C-word started getting thrown around again, thought that was pretty much a dead issue, seeing as how communism, like nearly every other ism out there has been sunk by running aground on the shoal of Human Nature.
Well, lets see, communist North Korea is in the process of developing nuclear technology. China, passed the USA as the second larger exporter of goods in the world for the last two quarters. (Yes, I know that they are currently expousing private property rights, but they are still a communist government that can seize any and all property any time they so desire.) Communist parties are very powerful in several western European nations, including NATO allies France & Italy. In January, Hugo Chavez of Venezuela said that he would nationalize (steal) the assets of all utilities in the country. In April 2006 he nationalized the assets of several oil fields. Look for Venezuela to become a communist nation in the near term.
Domestic social programs are nothing more than communism. (Remember the Union of Soviet Socialist Republic?) National health insurance was all the rage under the last administration. Bush & Cheney gave us prescription drugs coverage for all people in the USA over the age of 65, the cost of which will dwarf the costs of all wars the USA has ever fought. Just today, I heard that Hillary Clinton is pushing a bill that would make the federal government cover home loans to those who are defaulting on home loans. Is the next step in National Housing Care?
Communism is far from dead. It is alive and well both here and abroad.
[Edited on 4/13/2007 1:27 AM]
|
|
| |
|
| Apr 13, 2007 @ 1:20 AM |
Liberal Communists |
|
Say_Yes
Posts: 2,225
|
Hell I am glad someone explained all this. I really did not understand the whole thing. And I guess I am not a liberal, cause if I got money and someone tries to take to give to someone else who aint got as much then they are gonna get one hell of a ass wuppin.!
Uh, I hate to tell you, but what do you think taxes are? It is the government taking money out of your pocket and giving it to someone else.
|
| |
|
| Apr 13, 2007 @ 1:31 AM |
Liberal Communists
|
|
atropos9119
Posts: 178
|
Your definition seems to include any sort of redistribution of wealth. That's pretty broad in scope.
China as an economic superpower exists only because of dumping their shoddy crap on the US. The rest of them are starving in squalor. You also forgot to mention that bastion of Communism, Albania.
Regardless, none of the ones that are doing even remotely well are doing so due to applying the principles of Marx and Engels.
|
|
| |
|
| Apr 13, 2007 @ 1:31 AM |
Liberal Communists |
|
ravensday
Posts: 388
|
Uh, I hate to tell you, but what do you think taxes are? It is the government taking money out of your pocket and giving it to someone else.
Yes but Sweetie, I get all mine back at the end of the year!!!! Sorta like a savings account with out the interest. And as far as state and local taxes, I dont mind. I know that its going to benefit me in some form. Such as road improvements and such. I live in Texas and they are always working on the roads there!
|
| |
|
| Apr 13, 2007 @ 1:36 AM |
Liberal Communists
|
|
atropos9119
Posts: 178
|
By the way.
Communism is separate and distinct from socialism. Communism requires, as a principle, the violent overthrow of prior existing governments. Socialism does not. What you seem to be calling Communism is in fact socialism, although I believe taxation cannot be defined as socialism... governments of all sorts have done this throughout history.
|
|
| |
|
| Apr 13, 2007 @ 1:55 AM |
Liberal Communists |
|
kjac
Posts: 8,163
|
dunno why the C-word started getting thrown around again, thought that was pretty much a dead issue,
I've been seeing it a lot on the threads the past few days. Mostly from right-wing republicans.
|
| |
|
| Apr 13, 2007 @ 2:17 AM |
Liberal Communists
|
|
Say_Yes
Posts: 2,225
|
By the way.
Communism is separate and distinct from socialism. Communism requires, as a principle, the violent overthrow of prior existing governments. Socialism does not. What you seem to be calling Communism is in fact socialism, although I believe taxation cannot be defined as socialism... governments of all sorts have done this throughout history.
Uh, actually it doesn't. While changes in governments typically are violent, they are not always. In fact our current form of government here in the USA changed from a loose confederation of states to a representative democracy. The Articles of Confederation, adopted November 17, 1777 were our original national government after the revolution (which was violent) effective from March 1, 1781 until the adoption of the Constitition of the USA, effective March 4, 1789. It was a bloodless coupe. Hitler & Mussilinni rose to power in a democratic election. They converted their governments to dictatorships. North Viet Nam & North Korea became communist nations, with minimal blood shed. The Shah of Iran was deposed in favor of an Islamic state (which greatly changed ownership rights in Iran). Venezeula is headed that way currently. There are many examples of changes in national governments and forms of government that were non-violent.
So, just because the Russian Revolution & China were violent changes in government, it does not follow that any change to communism has to result from violence. In fact, if you read Acts, you will see that some of the early Christians formed "communist" groups, where they pooled their resources and all shared equally, awaiting the return of Jesus. This was not a change in government (Rome would have taken a very dim view of that), but rather a change within the society.
While not all taxation is socialism, portions of it in the USA are. The government takes money from us in the form of taxes to pay for social programs. This redistribution of wealth is nothing more than socialism. It is the armed theft of the wealth of one individual by the government in order to give that money to someone else, generally to buy votes and maintain power. If you don't believe me, stop paying your taxes. It won't be long before men with guns show up and take you away to become a guest of the state.
|
|
| |
|
| Apr 13, 2007 @ 2:32 AM |
Liberal Communists |
|
Say_Yes
Posts: 2,225
|
I never said that Communism was a good idea. It is economic suicide, as it removes all incentive to work. I simply stated that communism still exists in this world and that it is not going away any time soon.
As for China dumping their shoddy crap on us, oh really. It seems to me that the largest exporter in the world, Japan was accused of just that back in the 70's. Let me ask you, when was the last time that you bought a TV, stereo, camera or any other electronic device that was made in the USA? Detroit at one time was the standard bearer for quality in the automotive field. Today Japan makes the best cars in the world and they do it for less money than what it costs to make inferior products here. Just because China is not there yet, it does not follow that they will not be in the future. You might want to take a take another look at their economy. It has changed significantly over the last five years. If they continue their (economic) reforms, allow the markets to work, then they will likely pass the USA as an economic power in the next 15 to 20 years. They could well have more people in their middle class than we do within five years.
Also, just because everyone does it, (use taxes to redistribute wealth) does not mean it is not a socialist practice. I did not say that it was wrong, evil or improper. I simply stated that it was a mechanism by which the government redistributes wealth. Any book on economics will tell you exactly the same thing.
By the way, you might want to do a little more research. Albania is a democracy and it has been since its constitution was ratified in November of 1998. It has an elected government and an open market economy. It has not been a communist country in almost nine years.
|
| |
|
| Apr 13, 2007 @ 6:36 AM |
Liberal Communists
|
|
sealacamp
Posts: 3,681
|
Thanks for the link, but I already know what a communist is. I'm asking about a liberals. How are they related to Communists? Doesn't a lot of their views conflict with communism?
Apparently what is obvious is not visible to you. The answer is no! Truly understand what socialism is how it relates to communism or nationalism and you will have your answer. If, and this is a big if, you can see clearly you will not see very much difference between these three and many many liberals in the world fall into one of these three catagories as far as their political, social, and religious views are concerned. These view drive their actions which are less than desireable most of the time.
S
|
|
| |
|
| Apr 13, 2007 @ 7:40 AM |
Liberal Communists |
|
MarysPlace
Posts: 2,930
|
Yes but Sweetie, I get all mine back at the end of the year!!!!
I'd sure like to meet your accountant cuz he seems to be the only person in the USA able to do that.
Uh, actually it doesn't. While changes in governments typically are violent, they are not always.
Let us not forget WW2. While the communists in Soviet Union overthrew the Tzar before the war, the eastern bloc followed suit only after the Soviets ummm... liberated them from the Germans. Essentially swapped one occupation with the other. That was very convenient. There was no revolution per se, just the opportunity of Europe in utter chaos taken. In that respect, if it weren't for Hitler, things would have been much different in Europe these days.
But herein lies the real danger. An average American is clueless as to what communism is and therefore oblivious to the fact that that's what libtards are and where they are heading. If people only knew... Actually if people could have actually experienced European communism after WW2... this country would be all Republican and we'd all live happily ever after.
|
| |
|
| Apr 13, 2007 @ 7:40 AM |
Liberal Communists
|
|
Martin666
Posts: 2,195
|
Ah! I love a good conversation about socialism and communism and---what's nationalism in relation to a form of government again?
So many terms. 
I get confused so easy.
|
|
| |
|
| Apr 13, 2007 @ 7:45 AM |
Liberal Communists |
|
Martin666
Posts: 2,195
|
Hi Say Yes--
I don't understand...in one post, you say that communism is economic suicide, and in an earlier post you say that we shouldn't be fooled because china is a communist country, and in another post you say that china is undergoing an economic miracle and is about to pass the US economy in a number of key indicators.
How does that work?
|
| |
|
| Apr 13, 2007 @ 7:48 AM |
Liberal Communists
|
|
Martin666
Posts: 2,195
|
Marxist transition to communism is an inherently violent process requiring the forced dismantlement of most existing social classes and a period of complete supression by a super-strong state.
|
|
| |
|
| Apr 13, 2007 @ 7:51 AM |
Liberal Communists |
|
Martin666
Posts: 2,195
|
"North Viet Nam & North Korea became communist nations, with minimal blood shed."
Ah---weren't civil wars fought there to prevent the installation of communist regimes? I seem to remember reading somewhere about some kind of wars there?
|
| |
|
|
|
|