| Jan 4 @ 10:31 PM |
Is it over for Hillary Clinton ?
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SweetNapaGuy
Posts: 4,526
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For the record, before iam starts his usual debating tactic with me (i.e. thinking that mockery and abuse are a viable substitute for reasoned discourse), I'll say that I'd like to see the election come down to Edwards and McCain. i don't like either of them, but of the field of candidates, I think they're the best of the ones capable of getting into the White House.
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| Jan 4 @ 10:34 PM |
Is it over for Hillary Clinton ? |
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kjac
Posts: 5,484
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Thanks S blankey guy. I was kind of curious about who you supported.
The thing that bothers me most about McCain is that he's willing to admit we torture people, but unwilling to do anything about it.
But kudos to him for getting the ball rolling on the whole steroids in baseball thing. 
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| Jan 4 @ 10:41 PM |
Is it over for Hillary Clinton ?
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SweetNapaGuy
Posts: 4,526
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There's a guy I regularly debated on another website. He was so conservative, he made iam look like a leftist. (Note: He was an old-school conservative, not the neo-con trash currently running the Republican party.) (Another difference: He could actually write, in full paragraphs and with succinct and discrete ideas, backed up with facts. His interpretation was a little too "social darwinism" for my taste, but had to respect him for his intelligence...)
Anyway, he (the guy on the other discussion forum) wouldn't vote for McCain because he's one of the Keating Five.
Me, I wanted McCain to win the 2000 Republican primary. I wanted Bradley to win the Democratic primary. Unfortunately, the candidates with the least integrity won, and we ended up with Bush vs. Gore.
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| Jan 4 @ 11:30 PM |
Is it over for Hillary Clinton ? |
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Nightowl001
Posts: 4,087
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Right now, I'm pretty well unimpressed with any of them. McCain has gone on record (multilpe times) as saying it's been proven tax cuts boost revenues. I'm not sure I can vote for someone who doesn't understand basic math. Other than that, I believe (despite the Keating incident, which he appears to have honestly wanted to make amends for, since he cosponsored the McCain-Feingold bill) that he is probably the most honest of the candidates running. Unfortunately, I really don't like several of his positions. I really don't sense in my gut that Hillary has any deep abiding wish to do the best she can for the country as much as she just wants the raw power of being President and the notoriety that comes with being the first female President. I get the sense she would say (or do) just about anything to get elected. Which may yet come back to bite her in the butt. Depends on what she IS doing to try to get elected. (I have no naive illusions about things being done behind the scenes which I would find abjectly reprehensible.) Obama... well, Obama really could use a little more seasoning. I think his heart is in the right place, but I'm not sure I think he really is ready to bite off this much. I think his speechwriters have a lot to do with how intelligent he sounds sometimes, especially after seeing him speak off-the-cuff on occasion. Romney is as smarmy as Hillary. And he and Rudy both lie in their campaign ads and speeches.. a LOT. Factcheck.org has caught Hillary stretching a little here and there, but for the most part, they haven't caught her out in any out-and-out blatantly false claims except one about Guardsmen and Reservists not having health insurance. Part of that can be looked at as spin, as even Factcheck pointed out many of the people she claimed were uninsured had insurance "through their regular employers." Arguably, she was talking about government insurance for them being in the service and skipped pointing out that it wasn't all of them, but only some she was talking about. (That's not a defense, I'm just saying, I can see calling it not being factually accurate, rather than a blatant lie.)
I don't know what it is about Edwards that just sits wrong with me. Nothing I can put my finger on.
But, hey. Georgie boy and Dickie are gonna manufacture a mass casualty event on American soil before the election, declare martial law and halt 'em anyway. In one of those little side-stepping addendums to a bill somewhere, George has probably already signed an order saying the 22nd amendment doesn't apply to him anyway.
I'm just having a hard time "seeing" any of these people as President. 
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| Jan 4 @ 11:38 PM |
Is it over for Hillary Clinton ?
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SweetNapaGuy
Posts: 4,526
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We've had mediocre Presidents. We've had forgettable Presidents. We've had corrupt Presidents. This country will survive, as long as the Constitution is respected, and our civil liberties are preserved. (Hence, why Bush & Cheney are so dangerous...)
And to the inevitable neo-con refrain of "The Constitution is not a suicide pact" (yet another parroted phrase being spread through the neo-con blogsphere...), I claim hogwash. Without the Constitution, there is no USA.
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| Jan 5 @ 12:56 AM |
Is it over for Hillary Clinton ? |
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MusicMonster
Posts: 2,954
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Re: McCain..
Everybody tends to feel he is a war hero.. And that his history shows obvious courage to stand up tall, and fight. Fight what, does his history show? He didn't fight back when Bush and Rove were falsely nailing him to the cross, with a pack of lies about his family, in 2000, in order to defeat him. He wilted and folded. And he has, where Bush is concerned, ever since. I don't think that's the mark of a hero.
Hey guys, he was simply captured by the enemy and served time as a POW. While I'd never bash him for his service time during Viet Nam, being captured and imprisoned by the enemy does not a hero make. He had nothing to do with that. He was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time, along with many others,
Re: The current admin
But, hey. Georgie boy and Dickie are gonna manufacture a mass casualty event on American soil before the election, declare martial law and halt 'em anyway. In one of those little side-stepping addendums to a bill somewhere, George has probably already signed an order saying the 22nd amendment doesn't apply to him anyway.
Scary thought, but certainly not impossible. We have discussed this before. I don't think the Shrub and Sure-shot are above that, if they felt they could pull it off. Those two are not models for scruples. Dubya is not ready to give up his football and go home into total obscurity, turning his pet projects and all his power over to some newbie he doesn't even like, and there are many of those. He is very capable of that mindset. I for one, will be a bit uneasy until he's completely out of the picture, in every way. This has been an unprecented era, and badly needs to be behind us.
Re: Universal Healthcare
I am very in favor of it. With 47,000,000 Americans not having any coverage at all, it is an awful feeling, and even worse if something serious happens. I've been there myself, at one point, and having enormous chunks of the population who can't be fixed when/if they are badly broken, speaks very poorly for the greatest nation in the world. We need much better solutions to healthcare than the status quo.
-MM 
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| Jan 5 @ 1:32 AM |
Is it over for Hillary Clinton ?
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Mission_Impossible139
Posts: 222
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So mr weirdness supports freakman Gulliani? 
There is a guy who will make Bill Clinton look like a choir boy.
It's all about 9-11 eh stoopid? "Oh wait a minute, it's my wife calling" 
God it's amazing how really dumb some of these Republicans are!
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| Jan 5 @ 12:57 PM |
Is it over for Hillary Clinton ? |
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onoudn
Posts: 4,151
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While I'd never bash him for his service time during Viet Nam, being captured and imprisoned by the enemy does not a hero make.
So would you be happier if he had died while captured ? Would that make him a hero in your book ? He put the uniform on, served his country, and paid a catostropic price for it. He wasn't just in the wrong place at the wrong time. He voluntarilty placed himself in that position. That's exactly what make him a hero, as far as I'm concerned.
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| Jan 5 @ 1:25 PM |
Is it over for Hillary Clinton ?
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Nightowl001
Posts: 4,087
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So would you be happier if he had died while captured ? Would that make him a hero in your book ? He put the uniform on, served his country, and paid a catostropic price for it. He wasn't just in the wrong place at the wrong time. He voluntarilty placed himself in that position. That's exactly what make him a hero, as far as I'm concerned.
That's a little harsh, O. Even I have referred to him as a "war hero" in the past, but I understand what MM is saying. His A-4 was hit, he went down. He survived his injuries and was held prisoner, during which time he was tortured. In point of fact, McCain admits that he folded under torture, gave up military information and signed a confession to crimes, both disallowed under the military code of conduct. In a lot of people's eyes, that kind of tarnishes the "hero" image. On a personal level, I don't hold his breaking under torture to be a great deficit. And while he has shown great courage in facing physical obstacles, he, as MM points out, has not really stood up to any of Bush's shenanigans. As a victim of torture himself, he denounces it's use and admits that our interrogators have used what amounted to torture, but he he seems unwilling to go the distance in demanding it stopped. Some people would point to his apparent interest in self-preservation (including his preservation as a viable candidate and not being cast out by the Republican stronghold in this administration) as just a bit less than totally honorable or heroic. I'm not saying I concur completely, but I'm saying I certainly understand their point of view.
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| Jan 5 @ 1:39 PM |
Is it over for Hillary Clinton ? |
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lefthandedluckie
Posts: 5,023
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Just a little extra reading for everyone. About McCain and some of the other rethuglican heros. Remember it may make you want to regurgitate your lunch....so, have it empty "before" reading this information!! 
Some things that are rotten in our society seem to always re-invent themselves! Be sure to read all of the article it is very informative!! 
let's all go boating again
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| Jan 5 @ 1:44 PM |
Is it over for Hillary Clinton ?
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alivenwell351
Posts: 1,496
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I don't know what it is about Edwards that just sits wrong with me. Nothing I can put my finger on.
Maybe it's something like no matter how hard he tries, he just can't pull it off trying to come across as being one of the "little guys" he claims to be the potential saviour of...
About as phony as Giuliani trying to came across as some kind of 9/11 hero!!
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| Jan 5 @ 1:58 PM |
Is it over for Hillary Clinton ? |
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onoudn
Posts: 4,151
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I'm not off topic. Read the op, and the title of the thread. "Is it Over for HIllary Clinton", Mc Cain my well be the Republican nominee, and Hillary might run against him. Besides, I'm simply responding to your comment. If you thought it was off topic, why did you make it ?
And my comments stand. He is a hero because he put the uniform on. He could have found a way out but he didn't. Its not harsh. I'm a Veteran, and Mc Cain is viewed as a hero to a lot of people, including me. He is generally viewed that way by both Democrats and Republicans. Nobody else I know is questioning his military credentials. So who are you to do it ?
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| Jan 5 @ 4:09 PM |
Is it over for Hillary Clinton ?
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onoudn
Posts: 4,151
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Anyway, I saw a strategy Hillary Clinton my count on today. As the front runner he inherits the criticism Hillary was getting. She would be able to set back and allow the Republicans to attack Obama but for one problem. It would help Hillary more if Obama critics were more effective with their attacks on his message. People like Mitt Romney don't seem up to the task. Thankfully, Hillary came out swinging today with a more detailed message concerning what she would do as President. She also answered questions from the audience on any subject they wanted. This deomonstrates a command of the issue Obama seems to lack.
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| Jan 5 @ 4:11 PM |
Is it over for Hillary Clinton ? |
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iam7545
Posts: 4,151
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Billary down by 10 points in NH - that is about a 15 point swing
Here comes the divorce! 
>>>>>>>>> BILLARY DOWN BY 10 - RASMUSSEN REPORTS<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
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| Jan 5 @ 4:38 PM |
Is it over for Hillary Clinton ?
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onoudn
Posts: 4,151
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10 points does not mean Obama is going to win New Hampshire...BTW Hillary is till 20 points ahead. And anyway Obama only one Iowa by one delegate.
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| Jan 5 @ 4:40 PM |
Is it over for Hillary Clinton ? |
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iam7545
Posts: 4,151
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WHAT? 
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| Jan 5 @ 4:45 PM |
Is it over for Hillary Clinton ?
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Nightowl001
Posts: 4,087
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I'm not off topic. Read the op, and the title of the thread. "Is it Over for HIllary Clinton", Mc Cain my well be the Republican nominee, and Hillary might run against him. Besides, I'm simply responding to your comment. If you thought it was off topic, why did you make it ?
O, I meant MY reply was off topic, just that it didn't have much to do with Hillary but was just background on McCain. I didn't mean for you to think I thought the McCain V. Hillary talk was off topic. All I meant by "that was a little harsh" was the comment about "So, would you have been happier if he died?" No one was saying that. There are legitimate reasons to view McCain as less than Heroic, and it depends entirely on your point of view. As I said, even I have referred to him as a "bona fide war hero" in the past (especially when you stand him up next to Shrub), but "heroism" in interpretable, and some people who view his being broken by torture as less than heroic are certainly entitled to their opinions. I was in no way criticising his military service, just pointing out facts (he was broken, he stated he was and he stated he violated the Military Code of Conduct), and how some people might view that. As I said, I didn't see his being broken by torture as something cowardly or anything. I'm certain he lasted longer than I would have. But it does unquestionably leave him in the position of giving up his principles in the interests of self-preservation. It means he's not a heroic movie character who comes away having stood up to all in the end, but a flesh and blood human being.
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| Jan 5 @ 4:54 PM |
Is it over for Hillary Clinton ? |
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onoudn
Posts: 4,151
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Well the question "would you have been happier if he died" seems appropriate. If you go back to your original statement. That is specifically, being captured and imprisoned by the enemy does not a hero make . Now thats what's harsh and my responses was in kind.
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| Jan 5 @ 5:07 PM |
Is it over for Hillary Clinton ?
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Nightowl001
Posts: 4,087
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If you go back to your original statement. That is specifically, being captured and imprisoned by the enemy does not a hero make . Now thats what's harsh and my responses was in kind.
Sorry, but that wasn't my statement to begin with. To be honest, however, I actually agree with it. Simply being captured and held are not necessarily the attributes of a hero. An airman who was downed and injured and deserves my gratitude for his service, yes. A hero? Nothing all that heroic about getting shot down.
In my personal opinion, his heroism was displayed when the Viet Cong would have released him because he was an admiral's son, and he said he would not leave before everyone captured before him had been released. As always, however, there are two sides to that. By that time, he was in the attention of several international aide and news organizations and the Viet Cong no longer beat him, so captivity, while captivity, was no longer torture. Still, it was a decision to pay a price he could have gotten out of. So I will still refer to him as a hero.
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| Jan 5 @ 5:20 PM |
Is it over for Hillary Clinton ? |
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onoudn
Posts: 4,151
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Hillary demonstrates over and over again that she understands the issues. Obama just makes great speeches that give us a short time fix of being proud Americans, but have no real substance other thant that.
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