| Jan 19 @ 2:51 PM |
How do you feel about Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life?
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jamminjerry
Posts: 3,768
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i thought i might also add a point from the holy-roller POV. Gen 2:7 points out that a human is not whole until it aquires a soul and to aquire a soul the human has to have the proverbial "breath of life". the same POV of our reknowned philosophers is that our "soul" seperates us from all the other creatures.
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| Jan 19 @ 3:05 PM |
How do you feel about Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life? |
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iam7545
Posts: 4,151
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n other words, another step by the neo-cons in turning the USA into a third-world country...
ahem ahem ahem -
"Neo cons" as you blurt out on each and every post are generally socially liberal.
Bible Belt Christian conservatives are NOT neo cons. They are the original conservatives.
If you are gonna use this 100 times a day try to use it right. Do you even know what the F it means?
It is enough already!
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| Jan 19 @ 3:10 PM |
How do you feel about Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life?
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SweetNapaGuy
Posts: 4,526
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Neo-cons are socially liberal? Strange. Is that why the fundies keep voting for them en masse? Because of their liberal social attitude?
Try again, vantz...
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| Jan 19 @ 4:37 PM |
How do you feel about Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life? |
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whatagal
Posts: 809
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I'm a pro choicer who doesn't believe in abortion...go figure! 
I can't make another woman's decision to do the right thing. That is between her and God.
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| Jan 19 @ 6:48 PM |
How do you feel about Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life?
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Paralegal_at_Law
Posts: 5,066
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a fetus is NOT a "baby" until it can exist outside the womb.
Is that why so many women who suffer a miscarriage say "I miscarried and lost the baby" instead of saying, "I miscarried and lost the fetus?" How many people ask pregnant women, what are you going to name the fetus?
FYI: I wanted to share this with you, from the Huckabee/Constitutional Amendment snarfduffle thread:
There are so many hypothetical situations that would arise in the case of legally defining life as beginning at conception
Missouri has for a long time had such a state statute "on the books."
Missouri Revised Statutes
Chapter 1
Laws in Force and Construction of Statutes
Section 1.205
Life begins at conception--unborn child, defined--failure to provide prenatal care, no cause of action for.
1.205. 1. The general assembly of this state finds that:
(1) The life of each human being begins at conception;
(2) Unborn children have protectable interests in life, health, and well-being;
(3) The natural parents of unborn children have protectable interests in the life, health, and well-being of their unborn child.
2. Effective January 1, 1988, the laws of this state shall be interpreted and construed to acknowledge on behalf of the unborn child at every stage of development, all the rights, privileges, and immunities available to other persons, citizens, and residents of this state, subject only to the Constitution of the United States, and decisional interpretations thereof by the United States Supreme Court and specific provisions to the contrary in the statutes and constitution of this state.
3. As used in this section, the term "unborn children" or "unborn child" shall include all unborn child or children or the offspring of human beings from the moment of conception until birth at every stage of biological development.
4. Nothing in this section shall be interpreted as creating a cause of action against a woman for indirectly harming her unborn child by failing to properly care for herself or by failing to follow any particular program of prenatal care.
(L. 1986 H.B. 1596)
Having this law in full force and effect since January 1, 1988, has not created any "sky is falling" syndrome at law, nor has it infringed any women's rights.
[Edited on 1/19/2008 7:32 PM]
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| Jan 19 @ 9:45 PM |
How do you feel about Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life? |
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Loreli
Posts: 20,161
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Wow-
I didn't know one needed to show their voter registration card when getting an abortion.
It is WOMEN that get them. How the hell do any of you know what percent of them are what party?
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| Jan 19 @ 9:57 PM |
How do you feel about Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life?
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SweetNapaGuy
Posts: 4,526
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Lots of laws on the books only because they haven't been challenged, PAL.
And Missouri? 13.8% of pregnancies end in abortion. That's higher than the national average of 11.8%, by the way... (2005 numbers Cite)
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| Jan 19 @ 10:01 PM |
How do you feel about Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life? |
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iam7545
Posts: 4,151
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I remember reading that in the UK the only way to get an abortion is to have 2 Dr's agree that the mothers life is in danger. DO they have problems with back alley abortions?
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| Jan 19 @ 10:10 PM |
How do you feel about Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life?
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lefthandedluckie
Posts: 5,023
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iam7545...said this..."DO they have problems with back alley abortions?"...!!
Use that "googler" "dog trainer" and find out for yourself! 
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| Jan 19 @ 10:18 PM |
How do you feel about Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life? |
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SweetNapaGuy
Posts: 4,526
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I demand a cite for any random tidbit tossed into this discussion...
*****************************************************************
(Not wanting to clog the thread with a second post, I'll append this for the general public.)
As a musing, I wonder if the abortion rates on women raised in Republican households are comparable to those raised in Democratic households?
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| Jan 19 @ 10:29 PM |
How do you feel about Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life?
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Nightowl001
Posts: 4,087
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The above posted "law" is pretty illogical.
I notice they left themselves a few legal loopholes, as in "subject only to the Constitution of the United States, and decisional interpretations thereof by the United States Supreme Court and specific provisions to the contrary in the statutes and constitution of this state."
Seems like another state legislature pandering to the wishes of a few and wasting time getting "feel good" laws on the books that really don't accomplish a damned thing. "We'll pass this, tell our fundamentalist constituents what a great job we did, get a few votes, and any other laws we pass will automatically override any of this foolishness anyway."
You should be proud of your Missouri legislature for taking your money.
Not even close to the can of worms that would be opened by an amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
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| Jan 19 @ 10:40 PM |
How do you feel about Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life? |
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SweetNapaGuy
Posts: 4,526
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An amendment would take a two-thirds majority in both houses of Congress and then being ratified by 37 of the 50 states.
I don't foresee there ever being 67 anti-women's-lib Senators nor 290 anti-women's-lib Representatives in Congress. Nor do I see the 37 states going for it (considering that some fifteen to twenty states tend to vote Democratic), either.
Abortions were with us before it was legal. It'll be with us again if abortions are outlawed again. The only difference is, how many dead girls and women do the anti-women's-lib crowd want to see?
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| Jan 19 @ 10:46 PM |
How do you feel about Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life?
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 15,203
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IIAM said:
remember reading that in the UK the only way to get an abortion is to have 2 Dr's agree that the mothers life is in danger. DO they have problems with back alley abortions?
Nope, not so. Abortions are legal in the first two trimesters for the following reasons, and in fact quite a number of women travel there for abortions.
to save the life of the mother
Hto preserve the physical health of the mother
to preserve the mental health of the mother
when the unborn child has medical problems or birth defects
for social and/or economic reasons, e.g. if the mother cannot afford to support a child
Abortion is not considered to be justified in cases of rape or incest.
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| Jan 19 @ 10:50 PM |
How do you feel about Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life? |
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SweetNapaGuy
Posts: 4,526
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@ Heaven:
Wouldn't rape and incest fall under the "mental health of the mother" provision?
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| Jan 19 @ 10:53 PM |
How do you feel about Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life?
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Nightowl001
Posts: 4,087
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The Kansas legislature passed a similar piece of pandering legislation back in the 80s, when anti-gay sentiments were running high. Among other things they "legally" defined "sodomy" as the penetration of certain orifices by basically anything, devices, fingers, or anything else. (The end result being that anything outside of the Republican sex manual directions of "Insert Tab A into Slot B, repeat if necessary" could have been construed as sodomy.) Of course the next session of the legislature had to clean up their screwup by including (at the least) exemptions for such penetrations occurring in the "performance of medical procedures" and a few other things. Otherwise, every doctor in the state would have been subject to charges under the "definitions" passed. I frankly found it amusing that the first-passed version included a definition of "sexual devices" that actually would have made condoms illegal if used for the purposes they were designed.
(Edited for spelling)
Short-sighted jerks pandering for votes among the uneducated. What a way to run a country.
[Edited on 1/19/2008 11:11 PM]
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| Jan 20 @ 2:53 AM |
How do you feel about Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life? |
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Novalite
Posts: 3,009
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Whatagal I'm a pro choicer who doesn't believe in abortion...go figure!
I can't make another woman's decision to do the right thing.
I came on this thread to say the exact same thing myself Whatagal. I hope i can add a bit to your wise words with an observation;
Judges and politicians in the western world also agree withyou even though they don't actually come right out and say it. They are often uncommital, dodge the question, make laws that they know will be changed or not ratified etc. They please whomever they need to at the time without actually taking a solid stand one way or the other. The reason? You said it yourself and they damm well know it is true;
That is between her and God.
And who are they to come between a mother and God?
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| Jan 20 @ 8:36 AM |
How do you feel about Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life?
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misschoos
Posts: 1,182
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I remember reading that in the UK the only way to get an abortion is to have 2 Dr's agree that the mothers life is in danger. DO they have problems with back alley abortions?
I don't believe we do have back alley abortions here.
The two Doctors is being changed to one, if it hasn't been changed already.
remember reading that in the UK the only way to get an abortion is to have 2 Dr's agree that the mothers life is in danger. DO they have problems with back alley abortions?
Nope, not so. Abortions are legal in the first two trimesters for the following reasons, and in fact quite a number of women travel there for abortions.
Abortions are legal, but they require a Medical Doctor (not sure if it's one or two) to agree, otherwise they do not go ahead.
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| Jan 20 @ 8:55 AM |
How do you feel about Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life? |
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ColdinWisconsin
Posts: 8,627
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Personally, as an adoptive mother......I MYSELF would not choose an abortion.
But I'll be damned if I would participate in sending women back 50 years to coat hangers and butchers.
There was a young girl from our town that was raped by her mother's boyfriend a year ago. Long story short...she finally told when she found out she was pregnant.
The point of that short, horrific story is this.
She was put on a 10 day round of pills and had a miscarraige. The days of laying on a sofa with some strange man's cold hands using a coat hanger are over.
Nope. I won't vote that kind of technology away. I am not here to judge ANY woman.
And FYI boys. When your child dies in utero....(depending on the stage you are at) they use the EXACT same procedure to remove the dead fetus as they do for an abortion.
This is just my opinion.
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| Jan 20 @ 9:00 AM |
How do you feel about Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life?
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Blondino
Posts: 4,274
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abortions are easy to obtain .. I have never come across anyone who could not get one legally here if they wanted one ...
One doctor is GP and the next can be the doctor carrying out the proceedure ..
Glad that they are readily available and glad that people have to seek medical advice before as this means they are informed and can make an informed choice ...
teenagers push abortion rate to record high
By Caroline Davies
More teenagers are having abortions than ever before, fuelling a significant rise in the number of terminations in England and Wales.
Despite huge Government spending on contraception education, 19-year-olds are now the most likely of any age group to have an abortion, with 35 in every 1,000 having the procedure, according to Department of Health figures.
A total of 40,244 abortions were carried out on girls aged between 15 and 19 years, and 18,691 on girls aged under 18, including 1,042 on under 15-year-olds, 907 on 14-year-olds and 135 on girls under 14.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/07/nabortions107.xml
Abortion Figures Shame This Country
Question: How many babies were born in the UK in 2006?
Answer: 635,679
Question: How many abortions were carried out in 2006?
Answer: 194,000 (up 4% since 2005)
This means that nearly one in three four babies conceived in this country is aborted. Let me repeat that. One in three four babies conceived in this country is aborted. This is a statistic which I found profoundly shocking and at first did not believe. What on earth does it say about our broken society that so many living beings are aborted? Surely even those who are pro-choice are also shocked at these statistics?
In an ideal world there would be no abortion, but we do not live in that world and never will. Those of us who adopt a pro-life attitude must recognise that we cannot roll back the clock and shouldn't try to. We have to be pragmatic, but that does not stop us trying to understand why the abortion rate in this country is so much higher than in most others, and then doing something about it. The question is, what.
http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2007/06/abortion-figures-shame-this-country.html
stats for 2007 not available but apparently Ireland is stricter than the rest of th UK ..
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| Jan 20 @ 9:29 AM |
How do you feel about Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life? |
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misschoos
Posts: 1,182
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It still requires certification by two medical doctors
Abortion Act 1967 as amended by the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act (HFEA) 1990
This Act applies in England, Scotland and Wales, but not in Northern Ireland
A legally induced abortion must be:
* performed by a registered medical practitioner, performed, except in an emergency, in a National Health Service (NHS) hospital or in a place for the time being approved for the purpose of the act, and
* certified by two registered medical practitioners as justified under one or more of the following grounds:
A the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman greater than if the pregnancy were terminated;
B the termination is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman;
C the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman;
D the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of any existing child(ren) of the family of the pregnant woman;
E there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped;
or in emergency, certified by the operating practitioner as immediately necessary:
F to save the life of the pregnant woman; or
G to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman.
The act provides that in relation to grounds C and D the certifying practitioner may take account of the pregnant woman’s actual or reasonably foreseeable environment. The changes made to the Abortion Act 1967 by section 37 of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 1990 came into effect on 1 April 1991 and included a time limit of 24 weeks for abortions under statutory grounds C and D. Statutory grounds A, B and E, F and G are without time limit.
The Abortion Act allows for medical staff to opt out of providing abortions if they have a moral objection to the procedure. ‘…no person shall be under any duty…to participate in any treatment authorised by this Act to which he has a conscientious objection.’
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