| Jan 22 @ 8:30 AM |
The universal health care lie
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jaybird777
Posts: 1,033
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There is a lotta pumping on getting ever body covered with health care.
It comes down ta two big lies
1. Coverage=care. Insurance does not equal treatment. In an emergency, they have ta treat you. Insurance makes sure the doc gets paid. That is why the docs and insurance cos are pushin the idea.
2. Pennies from heaven. The folks are being let to beleive that universal health care means that they willl be given health care. What it means is that they will have to go out and buy it or pay a fine
Damn it, this idea is NOT bout helpin the poor folk, it is about makin sure that they get the rich doctors get paid
It is NOT giong to get poor people MORE health care, it is going to get them LESS.
Right now, if you can't afford health insurance, and ya get hurt, ya can still got to the emergency room and get treated without fear of repercussions
After this goes through, if you can't afford health care, ya don't dare go to the emergency room cause you will pay a huge fine fer no coverage.
THe medical industry wants to make sure that the one who show up can pay, and the ones who can't pay don't show up.
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| Jan 22 @ 9:17 AM |
The universal health care lie |
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eastham
Posts: 6,317
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You're all over the map on this. Do you have a particular program that you want to discuss?
There are a wide variety of health care reform proposals out there that use a variety of payment mechanisms, usually a blend of public and private pay.
Frankly, if it were all about rich doctors getting paid, why do many of them oppose health care reform? It was the doctors as well as the insurance companies that worked to defeat the Clinton proposal back in the early 1990's.
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| Jan 22 @ 10:51 AM |
The universal health care lie
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iam7545
Posts: 4,151
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Frankly, if it were all about rich doctors getting paid, why do many of them oppose health care reform?
eastham - I am sure you know the answer to this question. Dr's know what it is like to deal with our inefficient useless government as many have to deal with medicaire and medicaid. They don't want to see our health care system turn to $hit. They know better.
I agree with jaybird - get the government out of our pockets.
You think Billary will be waiting in line for weeks to see a DR?
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| Jan 22 @ 12:14 PM |
The universal health care lie |
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eastham
Posts: 6,317
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Actually, many doctors have an easier time these days with Medicare than they do private managed care. Medicare is far more transparent and in many cases actually pays better than the HMOs.
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| Jan 22 @ 12:18 PM |
The universal health care lie
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iam7545
Posts: 4,151
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Actually, many doctors have an easier time these days with Medicare than they do private managed care. Medicare is far more transparent and in many cases actually pays better than the HMOs.
well then I am sure there is a Republican scheme that causes the Dr's to be against it.
I just asked my Orthopedic Surgeon about Clintons plan -- he said that she is on drugs. He is a Dem and backs Obama
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| Jan 22 @ 12:31 PM |
The universal health care lie |
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yashaenka
Posts: 4,489
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If they would simply take the politics out of health care the truth is if they extended the program options all federal workers can choose from in a multi million person pool and extended it to all American citizen the problem of affordable health care for most Americans would simply go away.
The sad fact is young people do not want to pay for health care and those at, near or below the poverty line cannot afford it. If you make it mandatory just who will enforce it. That would require another IRS type of Federal policing.
Do not forget it is the Feds who caused so many doctors and hospitals to close by unfunded mandates....
After listening to the Democratic debates last night I just said to myself God help us and the Republicans do not have answers to this problem either.
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| Jan 22 @ 12:57 PM |
The universal health care lie
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iam7545
Posts: 4,151
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If they would simply take the politics out of health care the truth is if they extended the program options all federal workers can choose from in a multi million person pool and extended it to all American citizen the problem of affordable health care for most Americans would simply go away.
yash - who will pay for it? 
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| Jan 22 @ 1:05 PM |
The universal health care lie |
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Bj864
Posts: 3,110
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Too bad the American people don't get to hear about Kucinich's plan. It is to extend medicare to all people, instead of to just the disabled and over 65. We are already paying for medicare. The plan is already set up. The plan is working better for both the people and the medical facilities than most private health care plans.
Most people do not even know who Kucinich is, since the media has been so effective at blocking him out.
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| Jan 22 @ 1:17 PM |
The universal health care lie
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MusicMonster
Posts: 2,954
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Let's keep in mind too that by-and-large doctors are quite a greedy group.
For instance they make lots of money, yet they still do take daily from pharmaceutical organizations and do promote such products accordingly, (not unlike politicians and lobbyists). They are not God-like or super-human, and they do put their pants on just about like anyone else. But almost to an individual, and I have known several rather well, they do love those big houses and the Lexus automobiles in the 3-car garage.
As a group, (with occasional exception, to be fair), they will back whatever makes them the most money. Medicine has changed dramatically in the last several decades, from what it once was, which was largely a humanitarian occupation. Now most medical students do what they do, to establish an upper-class lifestyle. And as a result their contributions to society sometimes suffer.
Unfortunately, there are few Dr. Welbys remaining out there. Times change.
-MM 
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| Jan 22 @ 1:27 PM |
The universal health care lie |
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MusicMonster
Posts: 2,954
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Kucinich's plan. It is to extend medicare to all people, instead of to just the disabled and over 65.
Question regarding Medicare. Isn't that primarily a co-pay based scenario, and quite an expensive one for the patient, at that? I have always understood that if you are on Medicare, you'd better have additional private healthcare insurance as well, unless you are awfully healthy. And of course, you pay dearly for Medicare itself too.
But I am admittedly no expert on the subject.. It's just that my impression is that Medicare is seldom anywhere near enough, by itself. That the individual always pays a substantial percentage as well.
-MM 
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| Jan 22 @ 1:37 PM |
The universal health care lie
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Bj864
Posts: 3,110
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It generally covers 80% and has other co-pays. You need a supplement, unless you want to pay the 20%. The biggest problem comes in with hospital stays and expensive tests. The 20% for doctors visits are usually affordable.
Kucinich's plan eliminates the 20% and the co-pays. It is National Health Care, using our existing medicare.
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| Jan 22 @ 1:53 PM |
The universal health care lie |
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MusicMonster
Posts: 2,954
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So to be crystal clear, his plan would apply the Medicare concept to all, but would eliminate all the co-pays? True? Requiring nothing supplemental? Would one still pay for Medicare itself?
Seems to me that as it is now, once one pays for Medicare, at what? $100.00/Month or so per person, and then has to buy supplemental insurance as well, probably almost as much again, or $200.00/Month total per individual, that would not provide a viable solution for the poor, unless the co-pays were all eliminated.
If they were eliminated, then that might be quite a different matter. But I assume one would still have to pay the Medicare fees for each family member..
-MM
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| Jan 22 @ 2:17 PM |
The universal health care lie
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Bj864
Posts: 3,110
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You would still have medicare deducted out of your paycheck, but wouldn't need any supplements or co-pays.
If you are unemployed, disabled, retired or too young to work, you would still be covered.
I do not know if we would end up having an increase in premium, but even if there is some, it would still be preferable to what we have now, wouldn't it?
I copied and pasted the following from his website:
Congressman Kucinich is an original cosponsor of the Medicare for All Act with Congressman John Conyers, HR 676. This bill would provide all Americans the health care they need, from any doctor they choose, at a universal, high standard of quality. Americans would not be burdened with copayments, premiums or deductibles. Rather, they would be guaranteed access to medically necessary health care, including inpatient and outpatient care, dental care, vision care, pharmaceuticals, and other treatments that a patient’s doctor would deem necessary. In addition, this bill would come at a cost savings to employers.
When Congress considered the budget resolution, H.R. 676 was included as part of the Progressive Caucus’ Alternative Budget resolution.
On May 1, 2001 Congressman Kucinich, on behalf of the Progressive Caucus, hosted a Universal Health Care Briefing in collaboration with the Congressional Black Caucus and Hispanic Caucus. Congressman Kucinich brought together 12 members of Congress, former Secretary of Labor Robert Reich, Marcia Angell, former editor of the New England Journal of Medicine, as well as numerous other doctors, nurses, health care advocates, and patients. As part of the briefing, the Physicians for a National Health Program presented a proposal of a national, single-payer health plan.
Info about HR676:
http://www.healthcare-now.org/resources/hr676.htm
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| Jan 22 @ 6:34 PM |
The universal health care lie |
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Paralegal_at_Law
Posts: 5,066
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There are a wide variety of health care reform proposals out there that use a variety of payment mechanisms, usually a blend of public and private pay.
Veterans who receive medical treatments at the Veterans Affairs Medical Centers by virtue of their prior honorable military service SHOULD NOT be taxed to pay for the medical benefits of the louts who did not serve in the armed forces.
Accordingly, in any national medical care scheme funded by the taxpayers, military veterans MUST BE exempted from paying the taxes that are earmarked to provide medical benefits for those who did not serve.
The antiwar crowd can pass the hat exclusively among themselves to pay the new high taxes for the proposed national medical care plan(s) that are being touted.
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| Jan 23 @ 7:10 AM |
The universal health care lie
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not4me937
Posts: 7
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For instance they make lots of money, yet they still do take daily from pharmaceutical organizations and do promote such products accordingly,
This is simply untrue. Doctors do not make "lots of money" as many think. There was a day long, long ago that may have been true, today it is a falicy. Yes, we accept things from pharm companies, such as tissue, table paper, clocks, and...oh! Samples. This does not mean we promote the product, generally it means we have a pt that needs this med who cannot afford it and the pharm comp is kind enough to supply it at no cost. This does not mean we promote or even push that product, in particular on someone who has insurane but does not need the RX.
The healthcare industry is thought to be a career field where one can achieve financial gain. I will argue this with passion. Yes, we are reimbursed, not always, however, for what we do...so does everyone else. Our job does NOT end at 5 pm. We're on call 24-7. We are always learning and well should be. We are liable. Let me say that again. We are LIABLE. The insurance one must keep is ridiculous! But some will sue for hot coffee, others have more justified reasons, and we should be accountable, but there has to be a line somewhere and gov't is not doing the very best to protect healthcare providers from these bogus lawsuits. WHy do you think there's a shortage? There's not enough money in the world for what you have to deal with sometimes on a day to day basis.
There is no perfect gov't. There are some matters we shoud be responsible for ourselves. We cannot expect our gov't to be reponsible for the things we desire to hold them accountable for and expect it to stay out of the things we do not wish them a part of.
I will continue taking meds from the big drug companies...and I refuse to feel bad about it. I wil continue dispersing those meds to the people who need it but cannot afford it. I will continue driving my american made economy car, eating out less, reserving as much fuel as possible. I will continue to lay my head down each night on a pilow that's coming undone. I will continue to put my pants on one leg at a time, tho they are about 5 years old now and worn. I'll continue coming home each night to my simple house. No, it's not extravagant, nor is it on a hill. In fact, student loans will cost me more this year than living expenses combined. Getting rich??? HA! Some do it because they want to help others. If you're in it for the mpney, you may just be disappointed.
Don't blame us for the healthcare crisis, ther are several other things you should take in to consideration.
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| Jan 23 @ 7:35 AM |
The universal health care lie |
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jaybird777
Posts: 1,033
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You're all over the map on this. Do you have a particular program that you want to discuss? I know theres differents sorts of plans an all, but they all got one central theme. Go out and buy health insurance er pay a big fine.
This is simply untrue. Doctors do not make "lots of money" as many think. 
How many folks know a doctor that makes less than 100k a year?
Heck fire, I know bouit six of em gave up medecine and is now greeters at Wal-mart cause the pay was better.
Back on point.
Many folks hear "universal health coverage" and think "oh boy, they're gonna give me some health coverage". The truth is, they gonna slap a fine on ya if ya don't buy it.
They got commercials now bout "1 out of 7 ain't got insurance" as if ta say "1 out of 7 won't get treated"
They even go into "that 1 out of 7 is your neighbor Fred who gots cancer and no insurance" What they outta say is "Fred died a cancer cause he didn't go to the doctor with his lump, cause he didn't have no insurance, and couildn't afford ta pay the $2500 fine fer no coverage"
This is an outrageous scam by the insurance companies and AMA
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| Jan 23 @ 8:28 AM |
The universal health care lie
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eastham
Posts: 6,317
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Doctors, who were once part of the moneyed class, have fallen well behind attorneys and most especially Wall Street types in their pay AND they graduate from medical school with horrific debt. The old grant programs and other programs that provided for public service on Indian reservations and in inner-city clinics have all but disappeared leaving first year physicians with half of medical students having debt burdens in excess of $350,000.
The average pay for pediatricians and family physicians is around $100K. So, if you make $100K, almost a 1/5th of your income goes to financing your medical school debt. Add in the cost of malpractice insurance, especially for pediatricians and ob-gyn's, the costs associated with buying a practice....it's just astronomical. Their personal, disposable income is not what it was.
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| Jan 23 @ 8:33 AM |
The universal health care lie |
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kjac
Posts: 5,484
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Medical Pediatrician
Average National Salary as of Dec 31, 2007= $189,318
That's plenty in my book.
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| Jan 23 @ 8:53 AM |
The universal health care lie
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yashaenka
Posts: 4,489
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Avg salaries includes a Doctors gross income as a salary he earns from his own practice or the practice he works for. It does not take into account they debt he incurs for education, nor for the entire cost to set up a practice. Such things as liability insurance for doctors have driven many out of practice or is so high that many Doctors struggle to make ends meet.
There is a shortage of nurses and doctors must compete for good help as in any business. What once was a sweet deal for Doctors requires them now to see more patients per day just to stay even.
Any Government mandated and managed health care system will suffer the economic model that all Government run systems do. For every $1 that is sent to Washington less than 75 cents comes out because the overhead must be paid for too.
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| Jan 23 @ 8:53 AM |
The universal health care lie |
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yashaenka
Posts: 4,489
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The cost of health care is high because of lawyers, law suits and liability insurance.
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