| Feb 12 @ 12:35 AM |
U.S. charges 6 for roles in 9/11 attacks
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Jankia
Posts: 9,088
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Ok Napa,whatever...I "twisted" nothing,I only answered your question and commented on what you wrote, I saw nothing in regard to flying nukes into the city.
Try holding the same high standards you have for this country by holding them for yourself by not making false accusations by saying I twisted anything. 
Anyway,should I then suppose you would not pick up your shotgun to stop three armed invaders from coming into your home and slaughtering your children because of Maybe they will. Maybe they won't or would your unflexible morality, be abandoned at the first sign of danger?
Suppose these same intruders had your daughter hostage but you were able to take one of them hostage yourself.Would you or would you not use whatever means you had to obtain information about your daughter to save her life?
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| Feb 12 @ 12:40 AM |
U.S. charges 6 for roles in 9/11 attacks |
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Angel54214
Posts: 13,926
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I found this paper on the "Black Sites" in the New Yorker...I posting link starting on page 3:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/08/13/070813fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=3
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| Feb 12 @ 12:57 AM |
U.S. charges 6 for roles in 9/11 attacks
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SweetNapaGuy
Posts: 4,526
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Jankia said
(A bunch of "what ifs" and "suppositions" to justify fuzzy morality...)
Hmmm... You know, I wonder what your responses would be, if a similar thread had been in the Religion and Spirituality forum?
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| Feb 12 @ 1:00 AM |
U.S. charges 6 for roles in 9/11 attacks |
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Kenn159
Posts: 2,747
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We are still alive.You can tell the families of thousands killed on 9/11 that it was only "propoganda" that killed them,not the terrorists we couldnt stop because we did little to prevent it.
Lets get one thing straight.
Liberal Republican it doesn't matter.
If we had a government that we could trust, and either of us knew that the people in those prisons really intended on doing us harm, I don’t think either side would be crying a tear if they were in prison.
But here comes the issue.
First, torture doesn't work, it is unreliable and makes people say anything to stop the pain, not to mention that we are setting a precedent that the worlds most influential country finds torture is acceptable, which increases that chance that it will be done on our own men.
Second, many people imprisoned are innocent and were turned over for a bounty by greedy locals for the money, this is the very reason why so many have been slowly after years of being tortured and imprisoned, finally released with no evidence to charge.
So unless, you that are innocent, not so different than the others in prison that are innocent, volunteer to be tortured for something THAT YOU ARE NOT GUILTY OF, you can not justify your argument.
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| Feb 12 @ 5:13 AM |
U.S. charges 6 for roles in 9/11 attacks
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SensualGemini
Posts: 3,460
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Kenn wrote:First, torture doesn't work, it is unreliable and makes people say anything to stop the pain, not to mention that we are setting a precedent that the worlds most influential country finds torture is acceptable, which increases that chance that it will be done on our own men.
Second, many people imprisoned are innocent and were turned over for a bounty by greedy locals for the money, this is the very reason why so many have been slowly after years of being tortured and imprisoned, finally released with no evidence to charge.
So unless, you that are innocent, not so different than the others in prison that are innocent, volunteer to be tortured for something THAT YOU ARE NOT GUILTY OF, you can not justify your argument.
Hi Kenn...
If so many were slowly released "after years of being tortured," while others are retained "after years of being tortured" but " torture makes people say anything to stop the pain," then how did they decide who to keep and who to let go?
It is not just your post, as a few others said the same thing.
Actually, there is no torture going on today at Guantanamo Bay. The Red Cross, Muslim Imams, cooks, etc. are there and have been there for some time. There is a tremendous amount of questioning, everything is tapped and recorded, etc., but no torture.
Maybe not you, but others have concluded the nonsense that physical torture is used and that is simply not the truth.
Interrogators realize information from physical torture as about worthless and reminisce of McCain's speech of being a POW and brutalized... a totally unsophisticated process with too many variables of truth.
Today, but from the Vietnam era, a part of the Phoenix program has provided the best results and involves almost all psychological practices. After about 40 or 45 days, most everyone breaks with no further mental resistance.
Many saw the initial process from photos at Abu Ghraib prison, although they had little idea of what they were doing. But basically starts out with the prisoner being naked and kept that way. Shocked? ... we allow the same to happen right here in this country to US female citizens.
If and when used completely, it is for higher ranking, those of knowledge and always in other places in the world, before the detainee arrives at Guantanamo that is being supervised. Information gathered is then used for the lesser detainees that are simply questioned, as the facts are already known. And many of the "innocent" have been returned home by said interogations.
So, some of you are just totally friggen aghast that we would do such things to save lives; both American and Iraq. Well, watch Iam's video, or find the one for the BW guys hung from the bridge and what the civilians were doing to them, etc.
Some of you have said that we should set the example for the world and I invite you to watch the post I made the other day of what goes on with women in this country at airports, local yocal police stations, Peace Corp, etc.
Male Deputies - coed Strip Search Of Innocent Woman - Video
After the initial, scroll down on that page and I give you another 100,000 links.
We allow similar thing to our own citizens, our own women and kids and you folks are worried about some terrorist, some POW in Guantanamo Bay? I think maybe it is time to realign your priorities.
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| Feb 12 @ 5:17 AM |
U.S. charges 6 for roles in 9/11 attacks |
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SensualGemini
Posts: 3,460
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lefty wrote:and I quote....""We don't torture people in America and people who say we do simply know nothing about our country". George W. Bush [Interview with Australian TV - October 18, 2003]......!!!!
Now, I ask you did he lie or what?
....Actually we don't torture terrorists here, so he was not telling a lie; we might do it elsewhere... 
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| Feb 12 @ 6:32 AM |
U.S. charges 6 for roles in 9/11 attacks
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Blondino
Posts: 4,274
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Fair trial and then punishment ....
till the guilty verdict are they not still innocent ...?
I am all for punishing them in the cruelest way possible WHEN THEY ARE FOUND GUILTY BY FAIR TRIAL ...
Bringing names of terror victims into the equation for emotive reasons is not relevant when someone has not been yet tried ... Its playing on emotions over facts. I noticed this tactic used a lot in these threads ...
Why , instead of torture do they not just use the truth drug ? I am just asking as I dont know the answer , so no scathing and abusive replies if possible 
Angel - the UK is deporting another terrorist that will also be charged. Abu Hamza - Captain Hook -
Abu Hamza was already in prison in UK when he was extradited to USA
The bast***s family get 2000 dollars a week welfare as he has many children .... makes me mad 
[Edited on 2/12/2008 6:45 AM]
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| Feb 12 @ 7:28 AM |
U.S. charges 6 for roles in 9/11 attacks |
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eastham
Posts: 6,317
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couldnt a person be tried for proven crimes that werent proven by using torture,even though torture was used for something else?
Nope. Both US law and British law drawn their opposition to the use of evidence obtained through torture back to 12th century common law. Unlike their counterparts on the Continent, the British did not condone the use of torture and evidence obtained from torture could not be admissable in court. Things changed during the Tudors and early Stuarts, but returned to normal thereafter.
Recently, the British courts ruled (we don't have a ruling on this topic to compare, but one is surely coming) that evidence obtained under torture, even if the torture was performed not by the British, but by foreign nationals outside of Britain, was not admissable in court. Here's a story on the ruling. Here's a second story on the case from the New York Times.
In the US, civilian courts have ruled that evidence obtained through the use of torture is inadmissable; however, military courts are another thing. They do not require the same standards of evidence (there is no presumption of innocence and a unanimous verdict of a jury is not necessary, either) and there has been some debate whether these military tribunals could accept evidence obtained under torture. Precedent says no, but the Bush Administration's Justice Department has argued yes.
Given that some of the six have argued that they were tortured, I guess we will see if this will be allowed when the courts rule.
[Edited on 2/12/2008 7:47 AM]
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| Feb 12 @ 7:56 AM |
U.S. charges 6 for roles in 9/11 attacks
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MusicMonster
Posts: 2,954
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Kenn said:
First, torture doesn't work, it is unreliable and makes people say anything to stop the pain, not to mention that we are setting a precedent that the worlds most influential country finds torture is acceptable, which increases that chance that it will be done on our own men.
Well said Kenn.. Only let's change "chance" to "inevitability".and "men" to "men and women".
-MM 
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| Feb 12 @ 7:57 AM |
U.S. charges 6 for roles in 9/11 attacks |
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MotownManiax
Posts: 7,881
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The preliminary reports I've heard is that any information secured through waterboarding will not be admissible in court, so the government will have to prove its case by other means. I suspect since they are finally (about time) bringing these suspects to trial, the government has enough overwhelming evidence from other sources. My only fear is in order to protect intelligence sources and methods most of the trial record may be kept secret, which will only open the door to even more silly and inane "conspiracy" garbage by all the stupid paranoids out here.
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| Feb 12 @ 9:04 AM |
U.S. charges 6 for roles in 9/11 attacks
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Blondino
Posts: 4,274
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6 down ................... 244 to go
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| Feb 12 @ 10:04 AM |
U.S. charges 6 for roles in 9/11 attacks |
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Jankia
Posts: 9,088
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Sweetnapaguy- Jankia said
(A bunch of "what ifs" and "suppositions" to justify fuzzy morality...) 
Hmmm... You know, I wonder what your responses would be, if a similar thread had been in the Religion and Spirituality forum? This is the typical mindless garbage I love to point out to remind who the mindless are on here.No,I dont post the same thing in many sections here and in a blog to get attention like your missguided friend that I wont name just now.
Why you didnt say... (Jankia said the New England Patriots would lose the Super Bowl) I have no idea,that wasnt in this thread either. 
Hmmm....You know I wonder when he will start posting outright lies about me now like other lusers do to win a debate on here.
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| Feb 12 @ 11:22 AM |
U.S. charges 6 for roles in 9/11 attacks
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iam7545
Posts: 4,151
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Iam, your constant attempts to pick fights simply displays the true depth of your immaturity. I'm arguing that the United States should hold itself to an absolute standard, not a relative standard in comparison to some of the most brutal people on the planet. '
You ignorant comment was designed to provoke an argument. We treat these prisoners better than prisoners are treated in any country in the world.
These men are being brought to trial. They will be jailed for life. What is the problem?
The posts here prove that most are completely ignorant to what goes on at Gitmo - how many of the prisoners have been released and who the ones we are holding. IT also proves how dangerous the liberal media is as it has warped so many fragile brains here.
None are tortured, All are treated with dignity and respect to their religion -
UNLIKE DANNY PEARL -
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| Feb 12 @ 4:11 PM |
U.S. charges 6 for roles in 9/11 attacks |
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Paralegal_at_Law
Posts: 5,066
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If we had a government that we could trust,
Or better yet, if we had an able-bodied civilian population that was far more law abiding, loyal, ruggedly more self-determanant, and more charitably philanthropic, neighborly, socially responsible, sober, educated, spiritual, and less willing to turn a blind eye with an embrace of misprison of felony or misdemeanor, and humanitarian about expanding the borders of liberty and freedom abroad to the oppressed peoples of the world.
Then we would have brotherhood.
We have a good government, by and large, sometimes even a great government.
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| Feb 12 @ 7:06 PM |
U.S. charges 6 for roles in 9/11 attacks
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SensualGemini
Posts: 3,460
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Blondino wrote: Why , instead of torture do they not just use the truth drug ? I am just asking as I dont know the answer , so no scathing and abusive replies if possible
...Because they are not reliable for a well disciplined mind that can defy the intended drop of inhibition by using depressants such as sodium amatol, sodium pentothal, and sodium brevital, or others such as scopolamine (basically cocaine and a date rape drug), oxytocin, etc. They are useful to the extent of "possible" information, but about like questioning a drunk.
...Physical torture to the extent of obtaining truth is an ass backwards approach of body to mind, where the best methods work on the mind alone by introducing physical surroundings that effect the mind over time, slowly lowering resistance.
...Some are capable of distinct split personalities and compartmentalizing each from the other. After the breakdown of the mind, "truth serums" may be administered to access the self preservation lobe of the protected personality with various results.
...There is no guarantee for the best of the best, but these folks in question are not that well disciplined.
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| Feb 12 @ 7:19 PM |
U.S. charges 6 for roles in 9/11 attacks |
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SensualGemini
Posts: 3,460
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East wrote:In the US, civilian courts have ruled that evidence obtained through the use of torture is inadmissable; however, military courts are another thing. They do not require the same standards of evidence (there is no presumption of innocence and a unanimous verdict of a jury is not necessary, either) and there has been some debate whether these military tribunals could accept evidence obtained under torture. Precedent says no, but the Bush Administration's Justice Department has argued yes.
...It is not the Bush admin's Justice Department, as almost 2/3 of the Senate voted to eliminate habeas corpus and thus, there were a lot of Democrats as well.
...So, by all means, give credit where it is totally due and not pick and choose by personal political preference. 
...Regardless, since the Senate voted for no habeas corpus for terrorist prisoners, at this time, precedent is irrelevant.
...Right or wrong? It is an election year and they are reconsidering a new vote.
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| Feb 12 @ 8:34 PM |
U.S. charges 6 for roles in 9/11 attacks
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SweetNapaGuy
Posts: 4,526
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This is the typical mindless garbage I love to point out to remind who the mindless are on here.
Indeed? So morality is mindless garbage? I'm saddened to hear that...
*****************************************
We treat these prisoners better than prisoners are treated in any country in the world.
No, we do not. Most other liberal Western democratic countries do not use torture on their prisoners. I know your standards are incredibly low, but some people actually DO have high expectations for their country.
Morality is absolute. Using relative standards to justify bad behavior doesn't make it acceptable. (Otherwise, we might as well release all burglars, because at least they're better than murderers...)
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| Feb 12 @ 8:41 PM |
U.S. charges 6 for roles in 9/11 attacks |
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blueyes101
Posts: 8,306
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It is my understanding we provide them with copies of the Koran. we also allow them a certain time set aside everyday to pray, something our own troops are not allowed to do on the outside of the cells they are guarding.
By the way, does anybody out here really think the underwear on their heads was torture? Just curious.... 
The people who conspire to kill innocent civilians deserve more rights/ or even equal rights than the men and women who volunteered to go after them?
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| Feb 12 @ 8:50 PM |
U.S. charges 6 for roles in 9/11 attacks
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Paralegal_at_Law
Posts: 5,066
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If the 6 terrorists are convicted before a military tribunal for their capital crimes, would the punishment be death by firing squad or lethal injection?
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| Feb 12 @ 9:03 PM |
U.S. charges 6 for roles in 9/11 attacks |
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lefthandedluckie
Posts: 5,023
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First let me get this out of the way so there are no problems in where I am coming from!
George Bush and his whole Administration is nothing but a bunch of liars and treasonous liars to boot! Everything we went into Iraq over has proved to be a "LIE"! WMD's, Al Queda and Saddam and a whole host of other lies told to scare the American people into attacking Iraq! Yet, the planes that did all the work were flown by Saudi Arabians "NOT IRAQIS"! Did we attack Saudi Arabia?
We now know why we attacked Iraq....vengeance, oil and money! Bush has committed murder on a scale close to Saddam himself! He has besmirched the honor of our military and destroyed our dignity throughout the world! Our economy is in the tank...while recession raises its ugly head and Bush still borrows money into the trillions!
Meanwhile, here at home we have people with their a$$'s firmly behind the biggest SOB I have ever heard about in my lifetime!
I pity you people! 
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