| Feb 15 @ 3:24 AM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing..
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MusicMonster
Posts: 2,960
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McCain last month said torture (such as waterboarding) was immoral, despicable, reprehensible, and not at all in line with the Geneva Convention, or other humane War-Time policies. It should NEVER BE USED by a honorable country such as the USA!
After all, he said, if we use it, the enemy certainly will use it against Americans in captivity too! And that's the last thing we'd want to expose our troops to. Then he added it doesn't even work anyway, because the subject will admit to anything, just to make it stop, as he apparently would know first hand, from Viet Nam.
It's very hard to disagree with that viewpoint! I'd concur completely! Wouldn't you?
So this Wednesday, he cast his vote in favor of using Torture, such as Waterboarding and Other Harsh Interrogation Methods!! 
McCain Votes FOR Waterboarding and Other Torture Techniques!
Don't forget to vote for this guy, to lead our Nation into the future! 
-MM 
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| Feb 15 @ 4:35 AM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing.. |
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MusicMonster
Posts: 2,960
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More on this:
Maverick Fails The Test: McCain Votes Against Waterboarding Ban
Today, the Senate brought the Intelligence Authorization Bill to the floor, which contained a provision from Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) establishing one interrogation standard across the government. The bill requires the intelligence community to abide by the same standards as articulated in the Army Field Manual and bans waterboarding.
Just hours ago, the Senate voted in favor of the bill, 51-45.
Earlier today, ThinkProgress noted that Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), a former prisoner of war, has spoken strongly in favor of implementing the Army Field Manual standard. When confronted today with the decision of whether to stick with his conscience or cave to the right wing, McCain chose to ditch his principles and instead vote to preserve waterboarding:
Mr. McCain, a former prisoner of war, has consistently voiced opposition to waterboarding and other methods that critics say is a form of torture. But the Republicans, confident of a White House veto, did not mount the challenge. Mr. McCain voted “no” on Wednesday afternoon.
Maverick McCain Fails on Torture Test!
-MM 
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| Feb 15 @ 5:01 AM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing..
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Gman762
Posts: 3,072
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Waterboarding is only torture to the more feminine of the males in the US that swallow every little thing that their Gods at the MSM feed them, LOL.
McCain went through far worse on his best day at the Hanoi Hilton. He could likely tell you a thing or two about what constitutes "real" torture.
McCain is right in supporting anything that saves the lives of US citizens.
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| Feb 15 @ 5:36 AM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing.. |
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MusicMonster
Posts: 2,960
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So then why are you suggesting McCain was vehemently opposed to it last month, and all the months before that? But he just now changed his very previously-committed tune, when this president pushed him to do so? Surely he's not marching to the Shrub's drummer, is he? Naaahh!
And in your own rather twisted estimation, you suggest waterboarding is not a big deal. Right? That you could easily handle it? Naturally that begs the questions:
When were you last waterboarded? And how many times?
And each time you were, did you crack, or not? 
Take some time Rambo. Think about it carefully now. Make it good. 
-MM 
[Edited on 2/15/2008 6:04 AM]
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| Feb 15 @ 7:27 AM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing..
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eastham
Posts: 6,010
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McCain really prostituted himself this week.
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| Feb 15 @ 8:32 AM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing.. |
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kjac
Posts: 4,633
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Senate Republicans generally opposed the bill, but several of them also did not want to cast a vote that could be construed as supporting torture, and so were relying on President Bush to make good on a threat to veto legislation limiting C.I.A. interrogation techniques.
Cowardice at it's finest. Everyone who didn't have the testicles to vote on this one way or the other should be removed from their high chair.
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| Feb 15 @ 9:10 AM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing..
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Gman762
Posts: 3,072
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Music Pilferer: Waterboarding is only torture to the more feminine of the males in the US that swallow every little thing that their Gods at the MSM feed them, LOL.
Just in case you missed it.
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| Feb 15 @ 9:32 AM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing.. |
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eastham
Posts: 6,010
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Water boarding was first used during the Spanish Inquisition and I highly doubt Torquemada was pursuing it as a beauty treatment.
More recently, Malcolm Nance, a former master instruction and chief of training at the US Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School (SERE), has stated without reservation that waterboarding is torture. Nance, who has been waterboarded himself, trained Navy personnel to withstand it as a torture technique.
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| Feb 15 @ 9:39 AM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing..
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jimbo242
Posts: 358
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Just in case you missed it.
How could anyone miss it...apparently that's all you know.
I was hoping you'd be released soon but on second thought....maybe you should give those mind altering drugs a little longer to kick in.
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| Feb 15 @ 11:10 AM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing.. |
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iam7545
Posts: 4,151
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Once again I see the blind leading the blind! WHOODA THUNK!
The issue is not waterboarding. The issue is letting Congress pass a bill such as this. How many here or in the Congreaa have served?
Waterboarding is far from tortue. Letting a bunch of illiterate idiots that have no idea what the CIA and Military has to deal with make absolute rules like this is freakin ignorant.
Then I see all of our resident liberal whack jobs that consider it "enlightened" when EVERY FREAKIN DEMOCRAT Senator and Congressman changed their mind regarding the war now pile on McCain.
How about you fellers start wearing one face at a time??
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| Feb 15 @ 11:15 AM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing..
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MotownManiax
Posts: 7,881
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MM, I researched the story and think there may be some misinterpretation.
McCain voted against the bill because he thought the measure goes too far in applying military standards to intelligence agencies, and maintains existing law already forbids waterboarding.
Here's a press release from yesterday on his Congressional page.....
U.S. Senator John McCain (R-AZ) today submitted for the Congressional Record the following statement regarding the Conference Report to accompany H.R. 2082, the Intelligence Authorization bill: Mr. President, I oppose passage of the Intelligence Authorization Conference Report in its current form. During conference proceedings, conferees voted by a narrow margin to include a provision that would apply the Army Field Manual to the interrogation activities of the Central Intelligence Agency. The sponsors of that provision have stated that their goal is to ensure that detainees under American control are not subject to torture. I strongly share this goal, and believe that only by ensuring that the United States adheres to our international obligations and our deepest values can we maintain the moral credibility that is our greatest asset in the war on terror. That is why I fought for passage of the Detainee Treatment Act (DTA), which applied the Army Field Manual on interrogation to all military detainees and barred cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment of any detainee held by any agency. In 2006, I insisted that the Military Commissions Act (MCA) preserve the undiluted protections of Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions for our personnel in the field. And I have expressed repeatedly my view that the controversial technique known as “waterboarding” constitutes nothing less than illegal torture. Throughout these debates, I have said that it was not my intent to eliminate the CIA interrogation program, but rather to ensure that the techniques it employs are humane and do not include such extreme techniques as waterboarding. I said on the Senate floor during the debate over the Military Commissions Act, “Let me state this flatly: it was never our purpose to prevent the CIA from detaining and interrogating terrorists. On the contrary, it is important to the war on terror that the CIA have the ability to do so. At the same time, the CIA’s interrogation program has to abide by the rules, including the standards of the Detainee Treatment Act.” This remains my view today. When, in 2005, the Congress voted to apply the Field Manual to the Department of Defense, it deliberately excluded the CIA. The Field Manual, a public document written for military use, is not always directly translatable to use by intelligence officers. In view of this, the legislation allowed the CIA to retain the capacity to employ alternative interrogation techniques. I’d emphasize that the DTA permits the CIA to use different techniques than the military employs, but that it is not intended to permit the CIA to use unduly coercive techniques – indeed, the same act prohibits the use of any cruel, inhumane, or degrading treatment. Similarly, as I stated after passage of the Military Commissions Act in 2006, nothing contained in that bill would require the closure of the CIA’s detainee program; the only requirement was that any such program be in accordance with law and our treaty obligations, including Geneva Common Article 3. The conference report would go beyond any of the recent laws that I just mentioned – laws that were extensively debated and considered – by bringing the CIA under the Army Field Manual, extinguishing thereby the ability of that agency to employ any interrogation technique beyond those publicly listed and formulated for military use. I cannot support such a step because I have not been convinced that the Congress erred by deliberately excluding the CIA. I believe that our energies are better directed at ensuring that all techniques, whether used by the military or the CIA, are in full compliance with our international obligations and in accordance with our deepest values. What we need is not to tie the CIA to the Army Field Manual, but rather to have a good faith interpretation of the statutes that guide what is permissible in the CIA program. Full Text
Now, maybe McCain did a poor job of explaining his apparent flip flop and really is skirting the issue, but this sounds more like yet another example of bashers taking something out of context and using it to embarrass and ridicule.
Just my opinion.
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| Feb 15 @ 11:24 AM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing.. |
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kattsmeow
Posts: 20,882
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Thank you Mo. The voice of reason,,lol.
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| Feb 15 @ 11:31 AM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing..
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Gallows_Humor
Posts: 6,367
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Mo.. I get it... 
if there was a law stating just what the cia could legally do... then.. the cia could not use sex drugs or rock and roll ( or payoffs, witness protection, or a killing or two ) to potential torture victims...
so McCain feels that a top secret agency who only reveals just what they want to..can indeed be relied on to tell the truth.. the whole truth..and nothing but the truth to congress...
I cannot support such a step because I have not been convinced that the Congress erred by deliberately excluding the CIA. I believe that our energies are better directed at ensuring that all techniques, whether used by the military or the CIA, are in full compliance with our international obligations and in accordance with our deepest values. What we need is not to tie the CIA to the Army Field Manual, but rather to have a good faith interpretation of the statutes that guide what is permissible in the CIA program.
or is it a case of..If I ask you no questions...you cannot lie to me under oath...
but if there was no laws broken... if you are found out.. the secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions...
insert MI theme here...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSGVCEOjIlQ
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| Feb 15 @ 11:44 AM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing.. |
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MusicMonster
Posts: 2,960
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Did you read the articles I linked in Mo. I wasn't referring to McCain's personal interpretation of how he rationalizes what he did. He voted to allow Waterboarding and other similar (considered excessive) interrogation techniques, which he wanted no part of just a short time ago. Once that is made law, that's just how it is. (However thankfully, it was defeated in the Senate). There are political reasons why he apparently did so, indicated in the articles. But it doesn't change what took place.
We can spin it any way we want, but that's the real bottom line. It's really pretty black and white.
One is either pregnant or they're not. There is no in-between. However I'm on the run right now so I can't get deeply into this at the moment.
-MM
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| Feb 15 @ 12:06 PM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing..
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MotownManiax
Posts: 7,881
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I certainly understand what you're saying GH and MM, but to me it just sounds like McCain couldn't vote for a bill he didn't believe in, even though he may agree with some provisions. Bad bills sprinkled with a few good subparts are still bad bills.
My take on the whole waterboarding issue is just how effective was it in stopping terrorist activities back when it was used in 2002/2003? I've read some secondhand sources that the intelligence gleaned from it actually "did" help in avoiding attacks. We may never know the true details for years.
 Mo
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| Feb 15 @ 12:11 PM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing.. |
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yashaenka
Posts: 4,006
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I am betting that with the endorsement yesterday of the governor he altered his position on granting amnesty also. His goal is to be but a one term President willing to promise everything to secure his place in history. But at 71 the choice of a vice president will be crucial.
As far as water boarding is concerned anyone who has lived in a war zone in combat know that this whole subject is to be laughed at. It is nothing but political posturing in the real world of war a prisoner would pray that they only do water boarding to them and nothing more!
[Edited on 2/15/2008 12:15 PM]
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| Feb 15 @ 12:12 PM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing..
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Gallows_Humor
Posts: 6,367
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Bad bills sprinkled with a few good subparts are still bad bills.
yes this is very true.. but imo... by the time any bill makes it to the Presidents desk.. there has been bad stuff added on to them...
( being serious here... what ever happened to Line item veto's?? )
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| Feb 15 @ 2:21 PM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing.. |
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MotownManiax
Posts: 7,881
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Agree GH, I think the presidential line-item veto should be constitutionally mandatory, but with all the pork states benefit from bloated bills, good luck doing "that"....lol.
Brief history from wiki.....
Line Item Veto Act of 1996
Presidents have repeatedly asked Congress to give them a line item veto power. According to Louis Fisher in The Politics of Shared Power, Ronald Reagan said to Congress in his 1986 State of the Union address, "Tonight I ask you to give me what forty-three governors have: Give me a line-item veto this year. Give me the authority to veto waste, and I'll take the responsibility, I'll make the cuts, I'll take the heat." Bill Clinton echoed the request in his State of the Union address in 1995.
The President was briefly granted this power by the Line Item Veto Act of 1996, passed by Congress in order to control "pork barrel spending" that favors a particular region rather than the nation as a whole. The line-item veto was used 11 times to strike 82 items from the federal budget by President Bill Clinton.
However, U.S. District Court Judge Thomas F. Hogan ruled on February 12, 1998, that unilateral amendment or repeal of only parts of statutes violated the U.S. Constitution. This ruling was subsequently affirmed on June 25, 1998, by a 6-3 decision of the Supreme Court of the United States in the case Clinton v. City of New York. The case was brought by the then New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani.
A constitutional amendment to give the President line item veto power has been considered periodically since the Court ruled the 1996 act unconstitutional. Some scholars, including Louis Fisher, believe the line item veto would give presidents too much power over government spending compared with the power of Congress.
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| Feb 15 @ 2:35 PM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing..
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Gallows_Humor
Posts: 6,367
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thanks Mo.... 
A constitutional amendment to give the President line item veto power has been considered periodically since the Court ruled the 1996 act unconstitutional. Some scholars, including Louis Fisher, believe the line item veto would give presidents too much power over government spending compared with the power of Congress.
thinking this is something we all as the little guy..need to get behind and push ..
if it is a good line item...seems to me that the congress will overide his veto.. so..where is the problem?
I disagree with the SCOTUS here..as back when the constitution was written.. there was not as much federal power...and not as many (if any...) pork projects could be funded, like now..by the federal reserve just selling bonds...
just rambling here...but this topic might deserve it's own thread...  ( anybody??)
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| Feb 15 @ 4:02 PM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing.. |
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SensualGemini
Posts: 3,052
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Mo: Now, maybe McCain did a poor job of explaining his apparent flip flop and really is skirting the issue, but this sounds more like yet another example of bashers taking something out of context and using it to embarrass and ridicule.
... ...Tit for Tat
MM: Don't forget to vote for this guy, to lead our Nation into the future!
...Alright MM, of the likely candidates, who would you suggest? If it comes down to Obama, the echo of prior speeches, abstention from voting on controversial issues while being a presidential candidate... or McCain, who at least has the testicles to stand up for what he believes in, almost always votes on controversial issues, even if it looks bad and obviously almost always twisted, who will it be?
...You are an advocate of border control and the lesser of two evils of those two, is McCain. Obama openly said the last failed immigration bill was too strict. Even the Latino populous, those that are legal to vote, chose Clinton. The rest of the world of course wants Obama and we need to wonder why?
...Personally, I don't have a problem with waterboarding and the reason is, no matter what laws we pass, our enemy could care less and in fact, rejoices in our restrictive practices. Did Japan or Germany show humanity at any level for POW's? Did Vietnam abide by the Geneva rules? How about Iraq?
...In an attempt to set the example for humanity, we are the only ones that abide by them and that is BS. If we don't want the horrific of war, then be very hesitant about participating in them. But if we are forced, then it is gloves off, with the conclusion of winning.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki was not a nice thing either...
...Besides, you have been around and do you think some law is going to stop what a select few are going to do, when they feel the dire need to do so? When they need immediate results of potential, they will not wait 40 to 45 days to break an enemy down slowly and if it means saving the lives of hundreds, if not thousands, maybe your own family, neither would you... or I.
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