| Feb 15 @ 4:45 PM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing..
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eastham
Posts: 6,317
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...Personally, I don't have a problem with waterboarding and the reason is, no matter what laws we pass, our enemy could care less and in fact, rejoices in our restrictive practices. Did Japan or Germany show humanity at any level for POW's? Did Vietnam abide by the Geneva rules? How about Iraq?
So in otherwords, we call waterboarding torture and can prosecute others, as we did the Japanese, if it happens to US soldiers, but its okay if we do it? Sorry, that walloping dose of situational ethics is a little hard to swallow.
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| Feb 15 @ 5:29 PM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing.. |
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SensualGemini
Posts: 3,460
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...Oh, you will swallow if it meant saving the lives of your total family. At this moment, you have the luxury of living in a seeming security of glass walls and albeit wonderful ideals, not what much of the rest of the world subscribes to.
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| Feb 15 @ 5:52 PM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing..
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lefthandedluckie
Posts: 5,023
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I am sure McCain did not care as he had been tortured by professionals! The North Vietnamese, Red Chinese and the Soviets did a grand job on him! Other soldiers captured never gave radio address's to the Cubans and the Chinese...McCain did! He had the opportunity to die a soldiers death by shooting and killing as many of the enemy he could till he was overwhelmed.....he decided to throw his hands up and surrender!
He was "broken"! His spirit and manhood was broken by those commies! And now this coward is running for President! He couldn't "spit-shine" my boots! 
 I got a little off topic...MM!
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| Feb 15 @ 6:19 PM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing.. |
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SensualGemini
Posts: 3,460
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...A little off topic?  ... we all do from time to time, as many are quite passionate about our idealisms.
...Regardless, did you read Mo's postings? And once again, do have any proof of your accusations from 40 years ago?
...So far, you have had none that was factual, but we can agree that you don't like the guy. Wonder how Obama or Hillary would hold up as a POW? Oh wait, they would have to serve first...
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| Feb 15 @ 9:11 PM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing..
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lefthandedluckie
Posts: 5,023
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SensualGemini......You have undoubtedly missed this thread! That said I will give you a link to it so you can refresh yourself on John ,Hanoi Hilton Got My Mind Right, McCain!
Yeah, John, got his mind right and started talking his head off about our air craft! And we would know more but, as Chairman of the Committee he shut the records down so no one can see what the debriefings revealed from him and other pilots that were with him!
I provided many, many links that are full of factual data about this man whom is unfit to command a trash truck!!
John McCain giving secrets to the commies in North Vietnam
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| Feb 15 @ 11:03 PM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing.. |
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MusicMonster
Posts: 2,954
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It is a little But SG, of the three we currently have, the best on Illegal Immigration is clearly Clinton. Not that she's great regarding that, by ANY means, but she's the least anxious for a massive increase in illegals becoming citizens, than either of the other two. Obama or McCain.
Obama has stated on the stump that there's not a dime's worth of difference between himself and McCain on Border Security and Immigration, and he says he helped Kennedy and McCain write the last so-called "Comprehensive Immigration Reform" proposal which Congress and the People rejected last year. (the name is about as misleading as is the Patriot Act).
There isn't a candidate still around who is a good option regarding Illegal Immigration, (apparently it wasn't that big a priority for America after all). But Clinton is the best we have left. Now I know you are a Bush supporter. And since McCain is essentially a carbon copy of Bush in most ways, then electing him is a lot like a 3rd Term for Bush. And Bush of course was more a promoter of the Immigration Reform movement than anyone. He wouldn't give it up. So is McCain in precisely the same way.
As for me, there isn't a solitary thing that I could honestly support about McCain. He's got an awful disposition and personality, (widely known for that), is prone to rage, as far as I'm concerned he is a Bush lapdog, as he was for years, he does seem to have at least a 'questionable' past in SE Asia at best, or many certainly say so, he is affiliated with all the Bush/Rove Political Dirty Tricks groups, including the Swift-Boat Vets, and even the ones who got him defeated due to scandal in 2000, (they are now on his payroll), he wants to keep the Bush Tax Cuts for the very wealthy (top 1%) of American incomes, (and that doesn't include you and me), he wants to stay in Iraq for 100 years, he supports warrantless wire-tapping and the Patriot Act, he has no grasp for economics, which we need right now, he now supports torture, (although he didn't before), which I don't agree is okay. We have to be above the barbarians or we are no better than they are. And last but not least he changes his position constantly for political expediency, and he''s not very sincere. "The Straight-Talk Express" is very misleading although it has been effective for him.
Back to the Topic, I doubt very seriously if McCain would have voted for the use of torture if he were still a POW himself. But he's not anymore. So now it's okay with him. Because as someone stated earlier, we cannot charge and convict other countries and their leaders for war crimes and for violating the Geneva Convention, if we do the very same thing. Add to that, I have military background, and for him to sell out our country and our morals, and all we stood for, just as Bush did, is personally appalling to me, as it is to many other Veterans.
Again we are not barbarians, we never have been, we are supposedly moral and ethical leaders in the world, and barbarians are not what we should be emulating. McCain has said himself that torture doesn't even work, and I agree with that.
Now I know there's a lot here that you and I don't agree on. But that's my take of him and the situation in a nutshell. I can't even begin to imagine how he got where he is today. It seems to me Americans cannot be thinking in very deep terms about this man or he would still be where he was last summer, which is nowhere close to the presidency.
-MM 
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| Feb 16 @ 12:15 AM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing..
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SensualGemini
Posts: 3,460
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lefty:I provided many, many links that are full of factual data about this man whom is unfit to command a trash truck!!
...Lefty, I read the other threads and even participated where the conclusion of anything factual was quite the opposite. You keep saying this link or that link and every damn one of them was or is somebody's opinion, somebody that was not there and thus, not a fact.
MM: Now I know you are a Bush supporter.
... I am still laughing. What I have consistently said, is that Congress voted for and subsequently allowed Bush to do what he did and is doing without oversight; in essence, neglected their job.
...What I have consistently said, is that we are pulling from the same pool of essentially Bush enablers, as candidates for the presidency. Although and apparently for some it was accomplished, the Dems have attempted to distance themselves from their prior voting record as not being factual.
...It is truth, that Obama and many others were involved with the prior Immigration Reform bill that failed, but he publicly stated he did not think it was liberal enough. 
...McCain did not make any city a sanctuary city as Obama did with Chicago and Rudy, then Clinton did with NYC.
...After the fact, McCain appeared to at least try and get something done that was bi-partisan and although we did not want any part of it, the next Obama immigration bill will be an open door policy. Is it possible that McCain installed some new batteries in his crystal ball?
...The Executive branch is the one that is supposed to carry out the laws created by Congress and if you think Bush did a poor job, let Obama have a shot at enforcing immigration laws... a friggen joke.
...And of course, it is about time to cease this BS of the President introducing bills.
...Personally, I think Clinton and McCain are about equal on immigration. You and I understand the laws are already there and why are they not being enforced? Why have they not been enforced by the executive branch? 
...As far as waterboarding or anything else, I don't care what the Senate votes on, because in Central Europe, or certain other countries, they will do as they damn please. If they are in a rush for immediate results, albeit questionable to be further verified, they will do whatever is required. They will then follow up with the normal routine that has worked so well since Vietnam and in the end, deny it ever happened.
...This nonsense is all smoke and mirrors to appease a percentage of the public, Congress and parts of the world. McCain knows what continual barbaric methods are and from Mo's posting, I don't see where McCain flip flopped at all.
...Now, do I like him? ... I am simply trying to choose from the least of the evils and he has enough voting track record to identify who he is, whereas Clinton and Obama have little record too define, other than Obama was my state senator and I know him well enough to not vote for him. The whole US will become a sanctuary country and the world knows it; sad the people here do not.
...No, they would rather hear an echo of JFK and MLK blended together, which is about right, as Ted Sorensen, Kennedy's speech writer, now works for Obama.
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| Feb 16 @ 6:08 PM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing.. |
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MusicMonster
Posts: 2,954
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...McCain did not make any city a sanctuary city as Obama did with Chicago and Rudy, then Clinton did with NYC.
Actually Clinton and Guiliani were very opposed on this. Clinton set the non-sanctuary policy at a federal level, and Giuliani fought all the way to court to have it reversed and to not apply to himself or to NYC.
McCain had little to do with sanctuary anything. But then he's never run a locale of any kind. Had he been a Governor rather than a Senator, (God forbid) clearly he would have tried to have Arizona as a sanctuary State, because that's what his beliefs dictate. Just as he wants to make all of the USA in effect, a sanctuary country, as does Obama.
Lest we forget McCain says frequently, "They are All God's Children and deserve to be well treated, regardless of their origin". There's some merit in that favorite statement of his.. As long as they stay where they are supposed to be, and don't break our laws, or step on our toes. Then, everything changes. But McCain (mean, cranky old codger that hs is), doesn't acknowledge that they've done any wrong..
-MM
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| Feb 16 @ 6:40 PM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing..
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SensualGemini
Posts: 3,460
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...I know what Clinton said, but as a NY state senator, NYC is still a sanctuary city and nothing has changed, but the rules... "don't ask."
...MM, all we can go by, is their voting history and yes, McCain has years of history to be judged by; contrary to Obama and Clinton. Personally, I see Clinton and McCain close on several issues, where Obama is way out there in liberal world land.
...If you have read any of my postings, I voted for Kerry last time as Commander in Chief, because he had experience and Congress was Republican controlled.
...Should it come down to Obama and McCain, which way will you vote? I have already made up my mind and it will not be based on rhetoric speeches from yesteryear. Now, if Clinton is in there, I will have to think about it some more.
...If McCain can convince Colin Powell into being his running mate and nothing better surfaces on the left, it will be Rep this year for me; concluding that Congress will be even more Dem controlled after the November elections and Powell seems to be calm, experienced and with integrity... enough to abandon the Bush administration.
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| Feb 16 @ 7:53 PM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing.. |
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Bj864
Posts: 3,110
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McCain is right in supporting anything that saves the lives of US citizens
McCain seems to support whatever might make him president, instead of saving the lives of Americans.
He has kissed up for 7 years, waiting for his turn. He has been on both sides of the fence, on top of the fence and under the fence in his career. I used to like him, but now he makes me sick.
If by some odd happening he gets elected, I am finished with politics.
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| Feb 16 @ 8:06 PM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing..
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Gman762
Posts: 3,291
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Seems that the flower-hugging pansies of this country are worried about a little psychological torture used to extract information. That, while our enemies do far worse and even teach their children far worse. Watch this only if you dare...and only if you have a pair: Our enemies roots.
And, we're the bad guys because we might get somebody's face a little wet on a waterboard??
I'll gladly take a daily waterboarding compared to what that guy in the video got...
[Edited on 2/16/2008 9:27 PM]
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| Feb 16 @ 8:20 PM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing.. |
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Bj864
Posts: 3,110
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Are you like McCain and will change your mind about torture according to where you are in your political career?
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| Feb 16 @ 8:48 PM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing..
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SensualGemini
Posts: 3,460
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BJ: McCain seems to support whatever might make him president, instead of saving the lives of Americans.He has kissed up for 7 years, waiting for his turn. He has been on both sides of the fence, on top of the fence and under the fence in his career. I used to like him, but now he makes me sick. If by some odd happening he gets elected, I am finished with politics.
Read your thread on Obama... I posted a link about who is self serving and has been from day 1.
Who is Obama really representing? The working class or the Rich?
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| Feb 16 @ 8:54 PM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing.. |
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burnslikethesun
Posts: 9,595
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The lots not worth the pot to piss on.
Puppettes, angle vison twisters. And does your vote, the popular vote count in the final tally anyhows?
I vote locallly this president crap is all for show and blow. True power lays in the state. Or it should. So i focus myself as best as possible there.
Ex presidents are like ex spouses. Never should have married them in the first place.
[Edited on 2/16/2008 10:48 PM]
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| Feb 16 @ 11:56 PM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing..
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lefthandedluckie
Posts: 5,023
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SensualGemini....said this...."...Lefty, I read the other threads and even participated where the conclusion of anything factual was quite the opposite. You keep saying this link or that link and every damn one of them was or is somebody's opinion, somebody that was not there and thus, not a fact."....!
In other words, all the right wing sites and conservative sites I linked to were not factual!
You know what that means....you only believe what you want to believe! If it does not fit into your idea of what is the truth then it is a lie!
You know....I wasn't wrong about you at all!
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| Feb 17 @ 12:08 AM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing.. |
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DoorWatcher
Posts: 6,259
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What I have consistently said, is that Congress voted for and subsequently allowed Bush to do what he did and is doing without oversight; in essence, neglected their job.
Remember the times...to speak up in opposition at all was considered Non-Patriotic...with dire consequences.
Looking over this thread, I must say you all make it hard to catch up. I sadly do not have the time to read all that's written. For me, it all boils down to what do we as a country aspire to be: an example of what is right or a succumber to the norm. Do we torture because that's what other countries do? Or do we adhere to a higher ruling as we so proudly proclaim all the time?
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| Feb 17 @ 12:52 AM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing..
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MusicMonster
Posts: 2,954
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SG, sorry, I thought you were talking about Bill Clinton and his battles with Giuliani over NYC being a sanctuary city.. That's what went to court. Clinton imposing federal policy and Guiliani claiming he had no right to do so. Of course Rudy being always high on illegal immigration. I have never understood why though. One would think he wouldn't be, considering his time as what was considered a very tough, and hard on crime, Mayor. Hillary Clinton, to my knowledge, has not had much to do with Illegal Immigration or Amnesty, other than voting on Senate Bills and at one time aligning with the NY Governor's position on drivers licenses, which she later retracted. And eventually he did too.
A while back I wasn't aware you supported Kerry, I would have thought you supported Bush, and by way of similarities, McCain. I supported Kerry too, but not wholeheartedly. I too viewed him as the lesser of two evils. But I wanted Bush out of there in the worst way! You said you supported Kerry a day or two ago, and yes, that was a surprise.
I believe if this election comes down to a decision of Obama vs McCain, the country will be in a very dismal state, because either choice will be a bad one. We have three choices remaining right now. None of them especially good. But of the three, the worst two are McCain and Obama, in my view. I believe I could live with Clinton, although I'd be a bit skeptical and watchful.. While head and shoulders above Bush, she would not have originally been my choice.
Other than that though I think Gman needs a few waterboarding sessions just for the sake of personal enlightenment. Because clearly Mr. Rambo there has no clue what it's really like.
-MM 
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| Feb 17 @ 11:57 AM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing.. |
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Bj864
Posts: 3,110
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I guess I am going to have to say that Hillary is probably the best of the 3.
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| Feb 17 @ 10:32 PM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing..
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lefthandedluckie
Posts: 5,023
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I think McCain is a very bad choice and I certainly do not support Obama! I do support Hillary Clinton and will continue to do so....as I have stated before I do not believe in surrendering! With that I will give you another link to John McCain....the good, the bad and the ugly!
the good the bad and the ugly
This link will take you to the Cato Institute! At the top of that home page a search is there on the right. Type in....the good the bad and the ugly..! The third posting on that page is the story about John McCain! I could not get a link to the page as Match Doctor kept leaving out the email address! It is not an email address but their software thinks it is!
The story's name is..."Cato-at-liberty John McCain: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly"
It is interesting!
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| Feb 17 @ 10:37 PM |
McCain Changes his Mind! Waterboarding and other Torture, is Now a Good Thing.. |
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kjac
Posts: 5,484
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At least McCain voted on the issue to show where he really stands. I may not agree, in fact I dont, but IMO not voting was taking the coward's way out.
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