| Apr 10, 2008 @ 2:00 PM |
The Southwest's Dirty Little Secret...
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eastham
Posts: 7,907
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Polygamy.
This past week, law enforcement raided the YZF Ranch in El Dorado, a "commune" of fundamentalist Mormons in Texas. Because of the bravery of a 16-year-old girl, who had been forced to marry a 50-year-old man and bear a child, 417 women and children are now in protective custody. According to court documents released yesterday, this number includes several pregnant 13-year-old girls.
That Texas authorities acted is commendable, but I wish their colleagues elsewhere were as vigilant. Far too often, in states like Texas, Arizona, Nevada and most especially Utah, authorities cast a blind eye to polygamy. And while the events at Waco in the 1990's may have had a chilling effect on intervening in religious enclaves, the fact is these communities have been allowed to thrive for generations. In each of these 4 states, polygamy is illegal, as are pedophilia, statutory rape, assault, abandonment and welfare fraud. Yet, the fundamentalist Mormon church (FLDS) has been allowed to to purpetrate all of these crimes.
Teenaged girls are forced to become the junior wives to middle-aged pedophiles. The court documents released yesterday indicate there was a ritual bed in the YZF chapel, where grooms would consummate their marriages. Typically, the girls become pregnant and are encouraged to file for welfare. Many are victims, as was the 16 year old whistle-blower, of domestic violence.
Young men in these communities fare little better. They are viewed as competition for the hands of teenaged brides are often cast off. These boys live collectively in cheap apartments and posess little in the way of education or skills to survive. Often, these boys become alcoholics and substance abusers. Frankly, their lives seems little different than the "bachelor" baboons I watched last night on Nova.
Hopefully, the raid at the YZF will lead increased watchfulness of wrong-doing in these communities.
FYI, there is also a thread on this issue on the R&S forums, but given the documents recently filed in court, I thought it might be useful to have something on this forum as well.
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| Apr 10, 2008 @ 2:09 PM |
The Southwest's Dirty Little Secret... |
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Blondino
Posts: 4,553
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Been going on for years too
Up to 1,000 teenage boys have been separated from their parents and thrown out of their communities by a polygamous sect to make more young women available for older men, Utah officials claim.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/jun/14/usa.julianborger
The original 200 women and children who were removed during the weekend are secure in nearby San Angelo, but officials said most are afraid to speak candidly about what happened inside their church.
numbers seem to vary from 200 to 500
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| Apr 10, 2008 @ 2:14 PM |
The Southwest's Dirty Little Secret...
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eastham
Posts: 7,907
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Initially, 137 children were placed in protective custody. The last number I heard was over 400, but it could have gone up.
Here's a link to the FLDS leadership tree.
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| Apr 10, 2008 @ 7:26 PM |
The Southwest's Dirty Little Secret... |
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SensualGemini
Posts: 6,888
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.
...Until the facts come out, in Texas, with parental consent, females from the age of 16 can marry and with court order, as young as 14.
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East: this number includes several pregnant 13-year-old girls.
...I have been watching this for several days and no place has there been any mention of pregnant 13 year old girls. Where did you come up with this one East? 
East: Because of the bravery of a 16-year-old girl...
...As of last night, after taking all the children and Mothers away in none other than Baptist Church busses (there were school busses there), they have not come up with the 16 year year old girl that allegedly made the phone call.
Did anyone even make a phone call?
The girl, who has yet to be located... 
...The reason for the raid and "arrest," was apparently because the Department of Family Services could not figure out who the biological Mothers of the children are.
...Other than those that have previously filed for welfare, the children and Mother's refuse to talk to them.
"To the extent set forth in this Affidavit and in the attached Petition, the Department has been unable to determine the identity and location of the biological mother and/or father of the child." http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0408081texas6.html
...Someone more reputable is going to have to speak up, other than the Department of Family Services, who have screwed up more than they have done right.
...So far, after incarcerating and questioning all 417 taken into custody, they got zip.
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Blondino: numbers seem to vary from 200 to 500
...About a Billion Muslims can practice polygamy as an option all over the world, including the US. No marriage certificate needs to be issued, as when body fluid meets body fluid, a marriage exists.
...Of course, you knew this already. 
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| Apr 10, 2008 @ 7:44 PM |
The Southwest's Dirty Little Secret...
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Loreli
Posts: 25,398
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News here said
416 kids
phone call by a 15 year old that was forced to have a baby with the 50 some year old
Who is now missing
They don't have enough places to put all these children so quickly
Some woman had been flying over by helicopter to check the "growth" of the "community...
There had to be someone, somewhere that knew this horrendous behavior was occurring
Shame on anyone that thinks religion is a reason to have sex with children.......
(them-not y'all)
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| Apr 10, 2008 @ 8:17 PM |
The Southwest's Dirty Little Secret... |
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eastham
Posts: 7,907
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...As of last night, after taking all the children and Mothers away in none other than Baptist Church busses (there were school busses there), they have not come up with the 16 year year old girl that allegedly made the phone call.
As the article I read phrased it, none of the 16 year old wives have at this point come forward as the caller; however, there are quite a number of 16 year old wives and she could be anyone of them.
The former leader of this group, Warren Jeffs, is currently in prison, serving a 10-year sentence in Utah for two counts of rape. Jeffs is next scheduled to see the inside of a courtroom in Arizona for his role as an accessory to statutory rape.
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| Apr 10, 2008 @ 8:34 PM |
The Southwest's Dirty Little Secret...
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iglooo101
Posts: 6,060
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Nnice information about "any "form of marriage in which a person [has] more than one spouse."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy
another nice discussion
http://www.lovethatworks.org/FAQ.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_marriages
in it read "Christian insistence on monogamy"
In the Christian tradition, a "one man one woman" model for the Christian marriage was advocated by Saint Augustine (354-439 AD) with his published letter The Good of Marriage.
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| Apr 11, 2008 @ 1:19 AM |
The Southwest's Dirty Little Secret... |
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SensualGemini
Posts: 6,888
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East: As the article I read phrased it, none of the 16 year old wives have at this point come forward as the caller; however, there are quite a number of 16 year old wives and she could be anyone of them.
...Personally, I doubt if anyone called in. DFS was collecting information when women signed up for welfare and knew the names already, naming the caller, who is no where around.
...Once again, where did you come up with your seemingly outlandish statement that 13 year old girls were found pregnant? A little East ad lib sensationalism again?
...16 is a legal age of marriage in Texas. After segregating children from their Mothers and hours and hours of interrogation, there is no doubt that DFS will somehow justify this nonsense.
...Arrest whoever broke the law, not remove over 400 people from their homes.
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Loreli: They don't have enough places to put all these children so quickly
....Question is, why did they take them to begin with? As my prior post, the only reason in the 6 pages for a court order, was because DFS did not know who the children's Mothers were.
...If someone broke the law, then arrest them and leave the women and kids alone. I see no reason why Department and Family Services conclude they have the authority to further remove children from their Mothers and obviously to interrogate.
There had to be someone, somewhere that knew this horrendous behavior was occurring
...Apparently, the local Baptist Church and DFS had their hand in this one. Several county and state police have been to this place over the years and found nothing to arrest anyone for.
======================
...Due process and arrest the alleged perpetrator and not jump on the band wagon because someone is of a different religion. Is the Amish next?
...The alleged caller was 16, gave her name, who DFS already knew, "who she was married to" and they cannot find her hours later? Maybe they should see where her welfare check was sent to.
16 is also a legal age in Texas to be married.
...Then of course, East has 13 year olds pregnant out there now, so hell, anything is "possible." 
...The fact remains, DFS is on a "fishing expedition" for the law enforcement agency, or they would have brought charges against someone. If your 16 year old child's refusal to tell DFS her Mother's name, then remains enough reason to get a search warrant to search your underwear drawer, bank records, etc., then this country has more issues than we think.
...Waco, Ruby Ridge and a few other places come to mind that were absent of due process, twisted facts, unconstitutional and got a lot of innocent people killed.
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| Apr 11, 2008 @ 1:28 AM |
The Southwest's Dirty Little Secret...
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SensualGemini
Posts: 6,888
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Igloo: Nnice information about "any "form of marriage in which a person [has] more than one spouse."
...Yes, I often think US women jump on the band wagon a little too fast when it is potential polygomy, which is being practiced all over the US and quite common, if not mandatory in many other countries.
...I wonder how quick they would jump if it was polyandry (a woman having more than one husband)?
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| Apr 11, 2008 @ 2:08 AM |
The Southwest's Dirty Little Secret... |
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Angel54214
Posts: 18,177
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From what this news below had reported, the 16 year old woman who called, is married to Dale Barlow:
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8VT6DVG0&show_article=1
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| Apr 11, 2008 @ 6:01 AM |
The Southwest's Dirty Little Secret...
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Blondino
Posts: 4,553
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Warren Jeffs, 53, who is reputed to have dozens of wives, including some inherited from his father, was jailed for 10 years last November for insisting that a girl of 14 consummate her marriage to a cousin of 19.
dozens of wives 
Some had been beaten so badly they suffered broken bones and younger girls, some as young as 12 and 13, had been expected to have sex with much older men.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=558414&in_page_id=1811&ito=1490
The children were all removed and taken into temporary state custody on the grounds that they were in danger of "emotional, physical and/or sexual abuse".
"A number of the children interviewed were unable or unwilling to provide the names of their biological parents or identified multiple mothers," said Lynn McFadden, an investigator with the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services.
Children living in the self-contained ranch were deprived of food and forced to sit in closed cupboards as a form of discipline, said the court documents.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=558414&in_page_id=1811&ito=1490
Its not really about a man having more than one wife ... but many many young girls used for sex at puberty ( that was 12 for me  )  the truth has all yet to come out ..... time will tell what went on in that place ....
I am all for consenting adults living as they wish ......
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| Apr 11, 2008 @ 8:27 AM |
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MotownManiax
Posts: 9,737
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It sure sounds like a systemic problem, East. The question is how best to deal with it.
These cases usually center on the parameters of when, how, and why law enforcement and government agencies intervene in self-contained groups. Government has to balance civil rights with imminent danger, and whether there is just cause to step in. There's also the question of overreaction (must Waco taint everything, forever?).
It sounds like fundamental change will only occur when the practices (polygamy and pedophilia) are no longer tolerated within these groups and the larger communities they exist in (as Lori said, you won't convince me the outsiders who interact with these groups don't know what's going on and tacitly accept the status quo). In other words, the behavior starts becoming so repulsive that people will demand action. You'll never completely stamp out abuse, though. That's the price of freedom and stance of proponents of minimal government interference.
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| Apr 11, 2008 @ 8:43 AM |
The Southwest's Dirty Little Secret...
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SyndilLucian
Posts: 1,046
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I guess I am kind of surprised that the reactions to this seem to be split based on the sex of the viewer. Most women seem to be appalled, and most of the guys seem to be saying, what is the big deal? As far as I am concerned, any man that thinks it is ok to have sex with a 16 yr old needs to be locked up. I don't really care that the 'law' in Texas is 16. And I know I am going to get lambasted because girls have sex at 16, but I am not happy about that either. Perhaps we are getting a distorted view of what was going on in that compound, but what I read last night stated that this has been going on for so long that some of the women and girls there will have trouble living in the 'modern' world. And yes, I know about religious groups that have nothing modern and that is there choice.. I think I am going to lose this one, and I can't explain why I feel this is so wrong. I don't care either way about polygamy, between consenting adults, but not children, please? And you don't raise girls to be sex partners for older men, come on, guys. (sorry this got so long)
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| Apr 11, 2008 @ 9:23 AM |
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eastham
Posts: 7,907
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Motown,
But up until this point there has been little in the way of balance. Whether it be Eldorado, Texas or Hillendale, Utah, the FLDS has engaged in illegality and law enforcement has neither been proactive and may, in some cases, be complicit in the commission of crimes by failing to investigate and then prosecute known offenders.
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| Apr 11, 2008 @ 11:46 AM |
The Southwest's Dirty Little Secret...
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Paralegal_at_Law
Posts: 5,868
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The FLDS and its practice of child rape is not what traditional Mormon polygamy was all about in the 19th Century. Accordingly they should be prosecuted under Texas law, which permits up to 20 years incarceration for the rape of a child for a first offense, and up to life imprisonment for any second conviction.
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| Apr 11, 2008 @ 1:32 PM |
The Southwest's Dirty Little Secret... |
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Blondino
Posts: 4,553
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Reed  tell that to those who are not condoning it ... let you judge for yourself above who they are
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| Apr 11, 2008 @ 1:51 PM |
The Southwest's Dirty Little Secret...
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SensualGemini
Posts: 6,888
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Blondino: the truth has all yet to come out ..... time will tell what went on in that place ....
... Absolutely!
...What I think, what "you" think, does not matter when it comes to the law, what is legal and what is not.
...If any of the allegations and sensationalism by the "press," or Department of Family Services were known factual, they would not have removed over 400 women and children to be further segregated, but arrested the perpetrator(s).
...What gives DFS the right to separate children from their Mothers and put in foster care? What gives them the right after segregation, to interrogate these children? What happened to the Mother's parental rights?
...If anyone aligns themselves with this action, then it also aligns with the Mother's being the perpetrator, rather than the victim, as being the reason, apparently the common census for pro DFS action in this matter.
...Many Mormon's were murdered and slaughtered at Nauvoo, Illinois and prior in Zion, Missouri.
...What I see thus far, is a bunch of allegations that appear to be growing by imagination and hatred for a religious sect that does not align itself with the local Baptist Church, or mainstream Christianity.
...If anyone concludes that pedophilia or worse does not happen right in their own church or religion, wherever it may be, then they are a hypocrite. If there is any proof, then arrest the perpetrator(s) and not the victims in mass in the attempt to find some proof.
...It is guaranteed that anyone reading this and without due process, the legal system will be able to find some law that you have broken.
Its not really about a man having more than one wife ... but many many young girls used for sex at puberty
...There is not any remote amount of proof that girls were forced into sex at puberty, but ad lib sensationalism. You and I both know that millions of "arranged marriages" are quite common throughout the world, including the US.
...If 16, being the legal age of marriage, is so appalling to the masses, then change it, rather than the masses deciding who the 16 year old should marry, or should have married. The latter aligns itself with the extension of "arranged marriages" by the masses as in, "you can marry at 16, but only to so and so."
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Angel: From what this news below had reported, the 16 year old woman who called, is married to Dale Barlow
...And hours later, after splitting up Mothers from their children, this girl, who was among them, has not admitted to making any such call. She admitted who she was married to, when filing for welfare benefits and then DFS, with the help of the local Baptist Church, reacted to as a basis for removal of over 400 Mothers and children.
...If Barlow is guilty of something, then arrest him.
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Syndi: I don't really care that the 'law' in Texas is 16.
...That is the basis and foundation for any argument of legal or illegal activity. It is actually quite simple, in all they have to do is change the law. It is not a gender specific of what is the big deal, but what the law states.
...If we attempt to be the moral police of the world, we then have to decide on what basis we have the right to do so.
...For myself, it is the indignation, the trespass of DFS into becoming the moral police, with forced separation of children from their Mother's into foster care, as if the purported victims are actually the perpetrators.
...As the Mothers and children were herded onto the Baptist Church busses, did any of them appear to be abused? If they had told those Mothers and children, that they were about to be separated, the children put into foster homes, the Mothers incarcerated, how many would have quietly got on those busses?
...That practice will be remembered and the next time the moral police try this crap, it will not be so easy.
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| Apr 11, 2008 @ 2:16 PM |
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lefthandedluckie
Posts: 6,386
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First, let it be known far and wide...I abhor the use of females or males for anything unless they are at the age of consent!
But, DFS will be in serious trouble, I believe, if this girl fails to show-up! Without her their warrants are just so much paper to start a good camp fire with! Anything found in their search is inadmissible, in a court of law, without that corroborating witness! Of course we must understand this is Texas where they make laws as they go!
Just my humble opinion!! 
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| Apr 11, 2008 @ 2:37 PM |
The Southwest's Dirty Little Secret...
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LipGlossQueen9
Posts: 10,952
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All of these disgusting child molesters should be lined up and shot. 
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| Apr 11, 2008 @ 2:40 PM |
The Southwest's Dirty Little Secret... |
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budo13
Posts: 3,609
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thought you hated guns LGQ but i am in total agreement
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