| Apr 14 @ 12:55 PM |
Unions- The Necessary Evil
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raykl
Posts: 566
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http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/B/BLOCKBUSTER_CIRCUIT_CITY?SITE=PAPIT&SECTION=NATIONAL&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
The above link is only to validate the source of the following. It concerns Blockbuster trying to buy out Circuit City.
The next to last paragraph in the article states the following:
Over the last year, Circuit City has done some restructuring - cutting retail management positions, eliminating jobs at its corporate offices and laying off 3,400 retail workers and hiring lower-paid replacements.
Having worked in unions and in management, I believe that unions, or the threat of unionization, is a necessary evil to keep us from returning to the Andrew Carnegie days of 12 hour workdays for $1 a day. I will agree that unions had become overly powerful in some of their demands and needed to be brought down a few levels. There is a middle ground that can be reached in negotiations between union and management.
The companies bottom line is profit and people are only objects to achieve that goal. Unions help prevent what happened to Circuit City and many other large companies.
Let the slamming begin.
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| Apr 14 @ 12:57 PM |
Unions- The Necessary Evil |
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kattsmeow
Posts: 21,272
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Sorry, I am a union person. You won't get any flack from me.
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| Apr 14 @ 1:41 PM |
Unions- The Necessary Evil
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SensualGemini
Posts: 3,514
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raykl: I will agree that unions had become overly powerful in some of their demands and needed to be brought down a few levels.
...The Government has been systematically destroying Unions for the past 40 years or so with the "right to work laws," massive Illegal alien immigration, exporting jobs and importing products created without penalty, court orders to cease strikes, etc.
...The heads of Unions in Washington have sold the members out many times, including the recent AFL-CIO endorsement of the last mass amnesty attempt.
...For a fact, without Unions, OSHA for job safety would never have evolved and people would still be working for poverty wages, few to no benefits, etc.
...Some will say that Unions have served their purpose, but from what is now happening, they need to come back and be stronger than ever to fight against big business and a government that either neglects immigration laws, or creates laws to enforce big business's capabilities of suppressing the labor force.
...The AFL-CIO's endorsement of another mass amnesty, appears to have a fox in the chicken house. Meantime, wages have not kept up with actual inflation in the past 10 or 15 years and these same Union leaders have allowed pension funds to be raped by the States, such as here in Illinois, that is now $10 billion in debt to the state pension funds that were considered sacred.
...Sounds about like the Feds and FICA.
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| Apr 14 @ 1:49 PM |
Unions- The Necessary Evil |
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Loreli
Posts: 20,315
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Union for 26 years here-representative for Local and state, safety and health.
I didn't always like what I saw out of Union people I was around. But the fact that there ARE just as many good as bad reps.
Some very good people fight to get health and retirement benefits, raises, COLA, better working conditions. Bad reps give everyone a bad name.
But you will get crappy employees anywhere-better to know that half or more of the Union is doing it's job. People are being replaced by machines, immigrants, those all too willing to work for minimum wage and forget about any benefits.
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| Apr 14 @ 1:52 PM |
Unions- The Necessary Evil
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DiamondRain
Posts: 4,901
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Nahhhh ... (TO THE EXTENT THAT THEY RECEIVE SPECIAL GOVERNMENT DISPENSATION) unions interfere with the free market. They cause the same kind of economic problems that any other type of "price fixing" does.
The problem with your analysis is that you only look at the issue from a worker's perspective and not a consumer's perspective. In addition you ignore the effects of unionization on competitiveness in a global market.
Unions are bad for consumers because they increase the cost of virtually everything. The relatively few who are in the unions benefit at the expense of the many consumers who are forced to pay more than they otherwise would.
American unions have cost this country untold trillions of dollars in lost business on the world market over the decades. A lack of competitiveness in many industries (notably steel and automobiles, but many others too) has been largely due to the extremely high cost of labor brought on by unionization. ALL Americans suffered because of this in a number of ways including lost jobs, a threat to national security from certain industries moving abroad, a lower standard of living brought about by a loss of potential additional GDP and a diminution of consumer choice.
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[Edited on 4/14/2008 1:59 PM]
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| Apr 14 @ 1:55 PM |
Unions- The Necessary Evil |
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kattsmeow
Posts: 21,272
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^^ What was it like before the unions? Maybe you don't have anyone in your family that worked way back then?
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| Apr 14 @ 1:58 PM |
Unions- The Necessary Evil
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raykl
Posts: 566
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SG: ...The Government has been systematically destroying Unions for the past 40 years or so with the "right to work laws," massive Illegal alien immigration, exporting jobs and importing products created without penalty, court orders to cease strikes, etc.
This union busting was given the green light with Reagan and the Air Traffic Controllers. Companies felt that if the government could do it- why not business. I realize that the controllers had a "no strike" clause which the union felt they were above, thus the loss of jobs. Reagan had a legal right- but morally it was questionable- especially from a so called Republican Religious Conservative.
The major fault was that union leaders turned into business leaders and forgot about the best interests of the people they were supposed to represent.
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| Apr 14 @ 2:08 PM |
Unions- The Necessary Evil |
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DiamondRain
Posts: 4,901
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It doesn't matter what things were like before there were unions.
The point is that unions shouldn't have the government enforced right to rob consumers of free choice.
If a consumer would rather pay less for a non-union produced product, that should be their choice, not someone else's.
Consumers should not be forced to subsidize unions if they choose not to. That is the same behavior as organized crime, and we don't allow THAT.
In addition, unions should not have special government support that allows them to add so much to the price of American products that we cannot compete in a global market. That is bad for EVERY American, union or not.
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| Apr 14 @ 2:27 PM |
Unions- The Necessary Evil
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raykl
Posts: 566
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It doesn't matter what things were like before there were unions.
This has to be one of your most unintelligent answers ever. So we are to throw away all of the history books away and continue learning as we go? Return to good ol days of working for substandard wages so the Carnegies of this world can have the life of luxury and right before death, build structures "for the people" so all can say "What a great guy he was".
As for the steel and automotive comment: Unions did not have the total impact of their downfall. (I am from Pittsburgh). The downfall came from:
1. Steel companies unwillingness to update their plants to match the modern technology of the foreign companies. Those that have survived here did upgrade and are competing quite well.
2. The "dumping" of steel from foreign countries with no help from the Nixon-Ford-Carter-Reagan years.
3. The "Quota Hiring" which brought unqualified people into the workplace and no way to eliminate them.
Payroll had a minor impact on these companies competing in the marketplace.
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| Apr 14 @ 2:37 PM |
Unions- The Necessary Evil |
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SensualGemini
Posts: 3,514
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raykl: The major fault was that union leaders turned into business leaders and forgot about the best interests of the people they were supposed to represent.
...  ... Absolutely! ... on a state and national level, they became politicians.
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DR: Unions are bad for consumers because they increase the cost of virtually everything. The relatively few who are in the unions benefit at the expense of the many consumers who are forced to pay more than they otherwise would.
...It is true, that Union membership has declined over the years and with that, the consumer does not have a legitimate gripe today for blaming higher prices on unions.
...The real deal is that by far majority, employers are not going to pay or provide anymore than they have to, including job safety... that while left to the employers, created the recent mine disasters of non-union employers that hired Illegal aliens at the cheapest price, with no benefits.
...While wages have stagnated or dropped, prices are still going up by the created monopolies that profit more from cheap labor and few benefits... with huge CEO payments to minimize the bottom line.
...It was not so long ago, that our government broke up monopolies like GM, AT&T, etc., but today, not only allow, but have endorsed much larger monopolies to exist that hold all the cards, all the jobs, that by neglect of Federal laws, also provide the cheap labor supply.
...We are not working with a fair labor market, but one that is being manipulated for the employers and with that, the middle working class need Unions to make a come back and demand a fair employment environment; not allowing 30 million (and growing) illegal employees to dilute the labor force in competition for jobs that lower the wages for all.
...If folks wanted to live like Mexico, or further south in poverty, 10 or more to the house and no benefits, they would move there. In fact, by the lottery system, Mexico and south has not been eligible for a Visa into this country for years.
...Competing with sweat shops in China, as an excuse to compete in world trade, including the steel industry, would indicate US employees would have to do the same and apparently where we are heading towards. In 40 years, two parents working is now mandatory and soon, it will require the kids as well.
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| Apr 14 @ 2:57 PM |
Unions- The Necessary Evil
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DiamondRain
Posts: 4,901
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raykl
This has to be one of your most unintelligent answers ever. So we are to throw away all of the history books away and continue learning as we go? Return to good ol days of working for substandard wages so the Carnegies of this world can have the life of luxury and right before death, build structures "for the people" so all can say "What a great guy he was".
You are suggesting that it is good for society to force an employer to pay someone more than the value of what they can produce.
That is a theoretically altruistic notion.
But like all Socialist theories, it fails to serve the best interest of the society at large in practice.
The problem with so many of these notions is that they are based on a premise that you can get something for nothing. But in reality, all economic systems are finite.
If you pay one person more than they are worth, you must extract the difference between what they are worth and what they are actually paid from someone else.
So in your pursuit of fairness for one person, you create unfairness for another. And in the aggregate you have not only achieved no net justice, but you have done so by creating a deception that is not consistent with a free society.
I know that result is not your intent, but I believe that is the reality of what you are arguing for.
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| Apr 14 @ 3:06 PM |
Unions- The Necessary Evil |
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 15,333
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In 40 years, two parents working is now mandatory and soon, it will require the kids as well.
Just for those who don't remember, that's the way it used to be before the unions. I'm mostly a company woman, dropped out of the union and into management many years ago, but grandpa was one of those who contracted TB back in the sweatshop days and left grandma with 7 kids during the depression. Of course grandma being who she was, became a union organizer. The 7 kids all ended their educations early to find whatever work they could to keep the family going.
By the time I was working, the pendulum had swung to the other side - as a Teamster working at JFK, I saw the dark side of the union close up and personal, and got out. I hear it's been cleaned up considerably since then, and of course that pendulum just keeps swinging.
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| Apr 14 @ 3:08 PM |
Unions- The Necessary Evil
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steveemac
Posts: 2,336
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t doesn't matter what things were like before there were unions.
This has to be one of your most unintelligent answers ever. And that's saying a lot!
Seriously, folks, my take is this: Unions do more good than harm if you're a working person; and more harm than good if you're a robber baron. I've worked in a union (closed) shop -at the Milwaukee County Transit System- and I can tell you, it's a damn good thing that there was a union: between some of the working conditions and the attitude of management, I shudder to think what it would be like w/out union representation.
However, I now work for a motorcoach carrier that is not unionized; and I'm grateful that it isn't, for one simple reason: flexibility in scheduling. The things that are currently important to me involve time commitments that I simply could not make when I was at Transit; there, I had to follow lots of arcane rules and seniority steps to get different/extra days off that I might need; now, I simply negotiate directly w/management-and offer to do other assignments, like school bus routes- so I can be free for what's important.
Also, when I was with Transit, I was -for a time- on the local's organizing committee; and I can say this much, at least in the "people moving" industry: if you are the owner of a bus company that is faced with an organizing drive on your property, before you ask the organizers, "Why are you here doing this, and not somewhere else," look inward; for considering all the hassles that workers face during an organizing effort -including threats, intimidation, and termination- a worker has to really feel like their "back's against the wall," so to speak, to voluntarily subject themselves to it...especially considering that there's no guarantee that, after all that, it will be successful.
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| Apr 14 @ 3:20 PM |
Unions- The Necessary Evil |
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raykl
Posts: 566
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DR: You are suggesting that it is good for society to force an employer to pay someone more than the value of what they can produce.
Nothing that I have said has indicated what you are saying. I am saying that a FAIR-LIVING wage is due to all who work for a company. Because of management incompetence, 3400 hundred workers were eliminated at Circuit City even though they had done no wrong, nor produced less than what they could. With immigration comes the willingness to work for substandard wages. Don't like these immigrants- bring in more.
This is not a Mexican immigration thought. This has happened throughout our history- the Irish were hated in the Northeast for taking jobs away from those who were here before. The Eastern Europeans were given jobs in the mills because they had to survive. Each wave of immigration provided a cheaper labor force for the countries elite.
It was the unions that finally put an end to this constant downgrading of the workforce. Do away with unionization and we are back to square one in the workforce.
If you follow corporation operation, it is cyclical. It usually is not a matter of losing money, but making less than the last quarter. Show the stockholders we are trying by eliminating jobs. A few months later all of those jobs have been refilled at lower wages. A few years later, the profits are down again- eliminate people and rehire a few months later. Payroll has only a minor impact on the bottom line.
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| Apr 14 @ 3:38 PM |
Unions- The Necessary Evil
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DiamondRain
Posts: 4,901
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DR: You are suggesting that it is good for society to force an employer to pay someone more than the value of what they can produce.
raykl: Nothing that I have said has indicated what you are saying. I am saying that a FAIR-LIVING wage is due to all who work for a company.
But indeed you are saying exactly what I said you are saying.
A "fair wage" is that wage that an employer is willing to pay to an employee when both accept the deal voluntarily and without coercion. The entire premise of your argument is that an employer should be coerced to pay an employee a wage higher than what that employer is voluntarily willing to pay based on some notion that some third party deems to be "fair."
Free markets don't work like that.
If an employee can produce more value, an employer will be willing to pay them more if required. If an employee is worth more, the employee can successfully negotiate for more. But forcing an employer to pay more when that extra wage is not earned by an employee's increased value is exactly what I said it is, and it's bad for a society.
There is so much empirical evidence that substantiates this.
For the last few decades, as unions have lost a large percentage of their membership and power in this country, productivity has reached an all time high. At the same time, the level of prosperity has increased to new highs as well.
It could be argued that the cause and effect is reversed here...
Maybe it is because Americans have become so prosperous in the last few decades that they have realized that the union concept is out of date and no longer needed. I suppose that is possible too.
Either way, unions are either not desirable or not necessary (or both) ... take your pick. 
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[Edited on 4/14/2008 3:56 PM]
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| Apr 14 @ 4:04 PM |
Unions- The Necessary Evil |
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SensualGemini
Posts: 3,514
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Stevee: especially considering that there's no guarantee that, after all that, it will be successful.
...And if not successful, management has not forgotten and those employees will typically be dismissed one way or another in the future.
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Heaven: By the time I was working, the pendulum had swung to the other side - as a Teamster working at JFK, I saw the dark side of the union close up and personal, and got out. I hear it's been cleaned up considerably since then, and of course that pendulum just keeps swinging.
...Seemingly, most of the "corruption" with Unions, is at the top level; where the money is.
...Yet, I can see DR's viewpoint with employer's and union members that will not work, as typically, all members are "equal."
...Here, in the construction trades and I have been on both sides of the fence, the employer cannot refuse to hire someone off the bench, but can lay them off after 4 hours and the employee goes back to the bottom of the list to be hired again. It does not take long for them to get the picture. Or, if the union employee was fired before, the employer never has to hire back.
...My Grandfather was a Union coal miner in Southern Illinois and they fought a good many years for better mine safety and wages. Prior to, the mines were a dangerous place that mostly immigrants worked, as there was every nationality known, that lived in the coal mine towns that surfaced across the US.
...Even when I was a kid, it was an "interesting place," but here is an interesting, albeit condensed and from first hand knowledge, a bit biased read of the fight by Unions and better working conditions in the dangerous job of coal mining that my Grandfather participated in:
(I have the full original publication)
Bloody Williamson County .. and the later hold by the KKK.
The Hanging of Charlie Birger
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| Apr 14 @ 4:12 PM |
Unions- The Necessary Evil
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DiamondRain
Posts: 4,901
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Unions are a dying breed. Union membership has declined from about 20% of the workforce in 1983, when the government started tracking the figures, to about 12% right now.
In a free society, good ideas thrive, bad ones die. I see this as a good case in point.
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| Apr 14 @ 4:23 PM |
Unions- The Necessary Evil |
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Nightowl001
Posts: 4,134
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If an employee can produce more value, an employer will be willing to pay them more if required. If an employee is worth more, the employee can successfully negotiate for more. But forcing an employer to pay more when that extra wage is not earned by an employee's increased value is exactly what I said it is, and it's bad for a society.
There is so much empirical evidence that substantiates this.
It was no accident that unions and assembly lines grew up as next door neighbors. Assembly lines were responsible for the loss of work for hundreds of thousands of skilled tradesmen. Such was the price of technology. But as more and more people had to have a "job," rather than a trade, and as assembly lines move only as fast as the slowest worker, good workers lost their ability to negotiate for higher wages on their own. They became part of a pool of tradesmen necessary to produce a product. And it was only as part of that pool of labor that the tradesmen, however skilled or unskilled, had any power to leverage against what management had, which was wages. They're kind of like Republicans and Democrats. Things work best when both groups have to find a middle ground, and things don't work so well when either group has too much power and indulges in excesses. Bargaining unions became large enough to influence votes and it was only because of them that many laws regarding the employers' responsibilities to their workers were passed. If they pass away and lose that bargaining power, the excesses of ownership will rise again (as we are seeing). With few exceptions, power corrupts. As the pendulum swings back and forth between the power of management and the power of labor, each side will commit excesses when they have gained too much power and they will lose their power exercising it too vigorously. Until we have a system that teaches people to recognize the value of cooperation and places less emphasis on competitiveness (greed), that's the way it's going to be. I pointed out to my son many years ago that the basic flaw of socialism wasn't in its structure, but its impossibility as a pure philosophy. Greed will ensure that capitalism will never die.
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| Apr 14 @ 4:32 PM |
Unions- The Necessary Evil
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raykl
Posts: 566
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If an employee can produce more value, an employer will be willing to pay them more if required. If an employee is worth more, the employee can successfully negotiate for more.
I'm going out for awhile and interview some people at WalMart's and few other places and see how this negotiating works for them.
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| Apr 14 @ 4:34 PM |
Unions- The Necessary Evil |
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DiamondRain
Posts: 4,901
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[Edited on 4/14/2008 4:40 PM]
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