| Apr 15 @ 1:27 PM |
Illegal aliens or undocumented immigrants?
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Bj864
Posts: 3,118
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I got an email today with a bunch of sayings. The following one caught my eye.
Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant'
Is like calling a drug dealer an 'unlicensed pharmacist'
I agree with the saying. How do you see it?
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| Apr 15 @ 1:43 PM |
Illegal aliens or undocumented immigrants? |
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Nightowl001
Posts: 4,134
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Yep. I would agree with that.
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| Apr 15 @ 2:53 PM |
Illegal aliens or undocumented immigrants?
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steveemac
Posts: 2,336
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I dunno- the illegal immigrant isn't (usually) trying to make a profit at the suffering of others, whereas the drug dealer certainly is.
Seems like more attempts to attack the symptom, not the disease.
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| Apr 15 @ 2:56 PM |
Illegal aliens or undocumented immigrants? |
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eastham
Posts: 6,341
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And there are instances where paperwork has not caught up to reality. The State Department is about six months behind in processing visas for legitimately married individuals (I take a class with one). So there is such a category as undocumented immigrant.
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| Apr 15 @ 2:57 PM |
Illegal aliens or undocumented immigrants?
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DiamondRain
Posts: 4,901
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I just call them scum. Works for me. 
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| Apr 15 @ 4:19 PM |
Illegal aliens or undocumented immigrants? |
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Loreli
Posts: 20,315
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Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant'
Is like calling a drug dealer an 'unlicensed pharmacist'
yep 
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| Apr 15 @ 4:32 PM |
Illegal aliens or undocumented immigrants?
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Nightowl001
Posts: 4,134
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Okay, I have to backtrack just a bit here. Yes, the OP's statement would look good on a bumper sticker, but things aren't entirely that black and white, as Eastham pointed out. BUT, as Eastham DOES point out, an undocumented immigrant isn't always the same thing as an illegal immigrant. The situation isn't as black and white as "Amnesty or deportation."
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| Apr 15 @ 4:44 PM |
Illegal aliens or undocumented immigrants? |
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onoudn
Posts: 4,266
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I wonder if you might consider that since this country was stolen from the original inhabitants, were all "illegal aliens"....  That is except those descended from the American Indians that had their land illegally stolen. And east is correct as well. The system needs to be fixed.
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| Apr 15 @ 5:08 PM |
Illegal aliens or undocumented immigrants?
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SensualGemini
Posts: 3,514
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Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant'
Is like calling a drug dealer an 'unlicensed pharmacist'
...Absolutely! 
===================
Stevee: I dunno- the illegal immigrant isn't (usually) trying to make a profit at the suffering of others, whereas the drug dealer certainly is.
...Sure they are... who pays for it all? For most, work to pay taxes is a suffrage and for a good many, work itself is suffrage.
...We have a huge thread, that includes the social cost of Illegal Aliens, which includes criminal activity, costs to incarcerate, etc. There are at least 20 states that give free college tuition, that is not available to US citizens that pay for it. Stolen identity, increased poverty, etc., are all suffrage by someone.
20,000,000 Illegal Aliens!!!!
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East: And there are instances where paperwork has not caught up to reality. The State Department is about six months behind in processing visas for legitimately married individuals (I take a class with one). So there is such a category as undocumented immigrant.
...And how did they get into the country without a Visa?
...Married, does not give one a free pass to the US and still requires documents, a Visa, to legally be here and then to apply for citizenship, like everyone else.
====================
Knight: as Eastham DOES point out, an undocumented immigrant isn't always the same thing as an illegal immigrant.
...About 30 million Illegals would like to know how that one works... no documents, no Visa, sure seems to be Illegal to me.
...If you get pulled over for a traffic stop, or even as an innocent suspect walking down the street, you better have some identification.
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| Apr 15 @ 5:44 PM |
Illegal aliens or undocumented immigrants? |
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onoudn
Posts: 4,266
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I think one phrase is just less inflamatory. A person can't be illegal. But their documentation or lack thereof can be.
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| Apr 15 @ 5:49 PM |
Illegal aliens or undocumented immigrants?
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SensualGemini
Posts: 3,514
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O: I think one phrase is just less inflamatory. A person can't be illegal. But their documentation or lack thereof can be.
...Yes, that is what about 30 or 40 million Illegal's say and endorsed by LaRaza.
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| Apr 15 @ 5:50 PM |
Illegal aliens or undocumented immigrants? |
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burnslikethesun
Posts: 9,606
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Which in turn makes them what? Say it with me
ILLEGAL ALIENS.
Say lock em up and in stead of sending them back get them a tax id number and id.
Jaun you are now Dave congrads welcome to America, now go back to work and pay your bills. that way we can track them down and make em pay their tickets and fines, and medical bills, even collect the proper state and federal taxes too.
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| Apr 15 @ 5:59 PM |
Illegal aliens or undocumented immigrants?
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Nightowl001
Posts: 4,134
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Knight: as Eastham DOES point out, an undocumented immigrant isn't always the same thing as an illegal immigrant. ...About 30 million Illegals would like to know how that one works... no documents, no Visa, sure seems to be Illegal to me.
The Visa Waiver Program (VWP) permits visa free travel to the US, if you are a citizen of one of the following countries and the conditions below apply to you:
Andorra, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Brunei, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Monaco, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, San Marino, Singapore, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, The United Kingdom
You may travel without a visa if you meet all of the following requirements:
You are a citizen of one of the above-mentioned countries and hold a valid passport of that country. Your passport needs to be valid for at least six months beyond the period of your contemplated stay in the U.S. If you arrive in the U.S. on or after October 26, 2004, a machine-readable passport is required. Belgian nationals arriving in the U.S. on or after May 15, 2003 need machine-readable passports to continue to qualify for entry under the Visa Waiver Program. The Swiss emergency passport is machine-readable.
You are traveling for business, pleasure or transit only.
Your intended stay in the US does not exceed 90 days.
You must hold a valid return or onward ticket. Onward tickets may not end in Canada, Mexico or the Caribbean.
You will enter the US aboard an air or sea carrier that has agreed to participate in the program. This applies to most airlines and shipping companies (Private or official aircraft or vessels do not meet this requirement). You will need a visa if your carrier is not a participant.
The rules obviously reflect the influence of special interests.
At what point do they become an "immigrant" and not just a visitor? If' you are emigrating from Great Britain to Canada, you can't stop off in the US for a month-long vacation without a visa, unless you have a different destination prior to going to Canada?
There are a lot of legal ways to enter the country without a visa. There are a lot of ways this can turn into an illegal stay, and there are ways that this can turn into a stay that doesn't violate the intent of the law, but does violate the letter.
Part of the problem with calling people "immigrants" is even determining how long they plan to stay and what they plan on doing while they're here. If someone from England is visiting, and they are offered a job, do they suddenly become an illegal alien if they take the job while on the visa-less tourist status before obtaining a work-visa which will specify how long they are to be here working? Can we force them to go back to England and wait six months while the State Department gets their shit together to issue the work visa? Illegal immigration isn't solely a matter of Mexican nationals sneaking across the border to work without visas. (In fact, Mexico and Canada aren't on the list of countries from which you can visit as a non-immigrant without a visa). As I said, it's not a simple black-and-white issue, no matter what the bumper stickers would like you to believe.
My problem, and the reason I originally agreed with the OP, was the fact that the politicians are trying so hard not to call those who are willingly violating the law and illegally emigrate here what they are, illegal immigrants.
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| Apr 15 @ 6:10 PM |
Illegal aliens or undocumented immigrants? |
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SensualGemini
Posts: 3,514
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Knight: Part of the problem with calling people "immigrants" is even determining how long they plan to stay and what they plan on doing while they're here.
...Well, that makes sense. Thanks
...So, if I am here on a passport, get a job, rent a house, etc., I am probably going to be considered an Immigrant. So, I just need to apply for a Visa and blame the delay on the State Department and meantime, I will be legal?
...Of course, since no Visa's are being given to Mexico and south ( I don't really know, other than not available for the lottery ), as well as several other countries, I could still apply for one and waiting on a denial, I could still be legal?
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| Apr 15 @ 6:32 PM |
Illegal aliens or undocumented immigrants?
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Nightowl001
Posts: 4,134
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...Of course, since no Visa's are being given to Mexico and south ( I don't really know, other than not available for the lottery ), as well as several other countries, I could still apply for one and waiting on a denial, I could still be legal?
I suppose it depends on how good an immigration lawyer you can get.  However, Mexican nationals, as I said, are not allowed on visa-less visits that I can tell. While I was looking around, there were several places where it said that if someone was a frequent visitor, and had a temporary stay visa, and had visited several times, then they would probably not be looked at for visa fraud if they married an American citizen. However, if they happened to fall in love and get married on their first visit, red flags would be raised. The whole thing has just become a nightmare. Here's the visa site. You can see if YOU can make sense of all the intertwining regulations.
http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html
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| Apr 15 @ 7:25 PM |
Illegal aliens or undocumented immigrants? |
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SensualGemini
Posts: 3,514
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Knight: While I was looking around, there were several places where it said that if someone was a frequent visitor, and had a temporary stay visa, and had visited several times, then they would probably not be looked at for visa fraud if they married an American citizen. However, if they happened to fall in love and get married on their first visit, red flags would be raised.
...The elusive "green card" for marriage was a bit complicated and depends on where the marriage actually took place; in the US or in some other country.
...If a marriage took place out of the country, then the law was modified in 2001, for a K-3 temporary Visa for the adult and a K-4 for the children. They are allowed to come here, while awaiting for permanent status to be awarded.
How Do I Become a K-Nonimmigrant as the Spouse or Child of a U.S. Citizen?
...They do take a dim view on someone arriving in the US, with a passport, getting married and then applying for a green card, as being an attempt to circumvent the normal process required, which was an application for a fiance Visa.
...A marriage license itself, requires some documentation, but including a valid passport, can be obtained in most places.
...The main test, as long that person entered the US legally and not over 180 days here unlawfully, with a host of paperwork and applications by both parties, it does not appear to be more than a hassle to go through.
...Thus far, Immigrants are either here legally with a Visa, a potential Immigrant with a passport that could be converted, or they are here illegally and I don't see any grey areas.
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| Apr 15 @ 7:37 PM |
Illegal aliens or undocumented immigrants?
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Paralegal_at_Law
Posts: 5,068
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Work House Internment Camps should hold illegal aliens for a minimum of five years until the State Department processes their paperwork and decides to either admit the alien lawfully with an additional fine and community service sentence, or to deport them.
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| Apr 16 @ 10:42 AM |
Illegal aliens or undocumented immigrants? |
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lacyvsq
Posts: 4,304
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Actually calling someone who deals heroin, cocaine, non-medicinal marijuana or prescription drugs for recreational use would appear to be incorrectly labeled drug dealers.
The FD&C Act defines drugs, in part, by their intended use, as "articles intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease" and "articles (other than food) intended to affect the structure or any function of the body of man or other animals"
As such refined foods as sugar and such chemicals as MSG and aspartame are not labeled drugs, it seems incongruent to label refined poppy seeds, coca leaves and the unrefined marijuana leaves and flowers as drugs.
So maybe the simile has some merit.
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| Apr 16 @ 1:40 PM |
Illegal aliens or undocumented immigrants?
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SensualGemini
Posts: 3,514
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lacy: Actually calling someone who deals heroin, cocaine, non-medicinal marijuana or prescription drugs for recreational use would appear to be incorrectly labeled drug dealers.
...The term used on the arrest report will say "Illegal drug trafficking."
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| Apr 16 @ 1:50 PM |
Illegal aliens or undocumented immigrants? |
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lacyvsq
Posts: 4,304
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hmmm....where did you find that? (my curiosity again...)
Edited to add that it still sounds like a misnomer to me based on FDA's definitions and positions.
[Edited on 4/16/2008 1:54 PM]
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