| May 8, 2008 @ 5:42 AM |
Who will live and who will die in a flu pandemic
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sweetgypsysoul
Posts: 56
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I get the sense the article is talking about the scenario where all the beds are filled. The halls are filled. Every available space has been taken and people are still crowding the doors to get in. Guidelines such as this would take burden off the medical staff. When faced with 'who' gets what of equipment when there is not enough to go around it would be hard enough to tell a patient or potential patient there is not the room, equipment, medications, staff. In a true, wide-spread emergency, I've no doubt all would be taken care of until doing that simply became impossible. I don't like seeing the grim reality of the article either, but planning ahead for potential disaster is what in the end does save lives. I guess I see this article as stating 'between the lines' .. it can't be 'first-come, first-served' in a true, wide-spread, horrible emergency. Patients with the best chance at survival will have to be placed on priority. As the article says, 'Like in a war situation. Only so many doctors. Triage means the worst injured who are also most likely to survive are treated first. Those that will take too many resources away from many others and have less chances of survival will be put on the waiting list. It's grim, but it would have to be done. Impossible to expect medical staff to come up with a plan on the fly about who gets what when there is simply not enough to go around. That it's published .. I am more wondering at the motivation for putting these guidelines into mainstream media. What purpose does it serve?
As for the thread-drift topic .. I have always believed the 'must document everything/excess paperwork' these days is steeped in the potential of being sued.
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| May 8, 2008 @ 6:49 AM |
Who will live and who will die in a flu pandemic |
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alivenwell351
Posts: 3,339
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As for the thread-drift topic .. I have always believed the 'must document everything/excess paperwork' these days is steeped in the potential of being sued.
As is a part of the high cost of medical insurance....
Thank John Edwards and the rest of the ambulance chasers for doing their greedy little part to screw things up...
fkn lawyers...
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| May 8, 2008 @ 10:35 PM |
Who will live and who will die in a flu pandemic
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sweetgypsysoul
Posts: 56
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I don't have a personal dislike of John Edwards, nor a need to promote a personal agenda, as you seem to. The problem is not in the attorneys who provide a legitimate and lawful service to those who hire them. The problem is in the laws themselves .. in the power of insurance companies .. in the deregulation of industries .. in our broken media. If you would like to discuss this thread drift further, please create a new thread. I'd prefer to see others comment on the topic presented, which is why I left my thoughts on the subject.
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| May 9, 2008 @ 1:57 PM |
Who will live and who will die in a flu pandemic |
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Bj864
Posts: 4,234
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The reason I posted this article was to show how the government has plans to decide who gets treatment and who gets turned away and see how many people think that is ok.
I do NOT think that should be up to the government. I think it should be up to the medical facilities as to how they would handle a pandemic of any kind.
Remember the elderly people in the Nursing Home that were not saved? Remember the outcry and the lawsuits that I am sure are still going on?
According this article, when it comes to a major event, young and healthy people are where the efforts should be, not for the disabled or the elderly.
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| May 9, 2008 @ 2:17 PM |
Who will live and who will die in a flu pandemic
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Gallows_Humor
Posts: 14,498
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bj... I think everyone agrees that the outlook is bleak in a true pandemic... and hard choices have to be made.. I am having a hard time dealing with posters who equate a true pandemic with normal events..
of course.. if they have empty beds ( read treatment here..) .. don't turn anyone away.. but if there are two beds available..and ten patients needing it.. which two should get the beds??
another way to look at it.. you are on a lifeboat out in the middle of the ocean with no idea when you will be rescued. You are in charge of water. which is very limited and there is a passenger who says that "they had a full life.. know they will die in a year due to what ever.". and want his share of water to go to the children on board... what would you do?... give his share of water to the children on board..or make him drink his share... 
and the guy next to him says... well I am in the same boat as him... but I want my share of the water .. and if I die now..... we all should die... 
you look at the thirsty children..and..then say to him......
[Edited on 5/9/2008 2:23 PM]
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| May 9, 2008 @ 4:24 PM |
Who will live and who will die in a flu pandemic |
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Bj864
Posts: 4,234
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I would give my life anytime for my children, but shouldn't that be MY decision?
I think the moment we accept that it is ok for our government to make these kinds of decisions, is the moment we have given up our most important right. The right to live our life.
The whole thing just makes me feel queasy.
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| May 9, 2008 @ 4:57 PM |
Who will live and who will die in a flu pandemic
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Gallows_Humor
Posts: 14,498
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think the moment we accept that it is ok for our government to make these kinds of decisions, is the moment we have given up our most important right.
but in the bigger picture... the government is us... and we have an obligation to do what is right for everyone.. not just for those who are lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time..
in a pandemic.. should well off area's who have a higher bed to citizen ratio ( more beds per 1000 people) be allowed to say.. if you are not from our area.. we are not going to treat you, when there is an overflow of patients from a poor area whose bed to person ratio is higher ??
or is it lower.... ( less beds per 1000 people )
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| May 9, 2008 @ 5:06 PM |
Who will live and who will die in a flu pandemic |
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eastham
Posts: 8,139
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The idea is to try to make sure that scarce resources — including ventilators, medicine and doctors and nurses — are used in a uniform, objective way, task force members said. From the press story on the report.
This type of planning is extremely necessary. Triaging patients on the battlefield or in the city emergency room is a necessity. If you have one ventilator and two patients who need it -- one who will live if given care and one who will die no matter the care, then you must give the machine to the individual who will benefit from it.
Disaster preparedness is crucial. If the nursing home in New Orleans had been compelled to develop an evacuation plan years earlier and continued to train the employees to implement that plan, those people would not have died.
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| May 9, 2008 @ 5:29 PM |
Who will live and who will die in a flu pandemic
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lacyvsq
Posts: 6,687
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I would give my life anytime for my children, but shouldn't that be MY decision?
I think the moment we accept that it is ok for our government to make these kinds of decisions, is the moment we have given up our most important right. The right to live our life.
but in the bigger picture... the government is us...
 Ideally perhaps; realistically? Hardly!
and we have an obligation to do what is right for everyone.. not just for those who are lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time..
We have a moral obligation perhaps to do unto others as we would have them do unto us. As far as doing what is right for everyone? Can we get a consensus on what that is? Or do we just pick an opinion? Or we let might decide right?
...one who will live if given care and one who will die no matter the care...
I think that is a poor way of stating the choices as there is no way of knowing who lives with care nor who dies no matter the care. Should not the question rather be as to whether care is given to one likely to die without care as opposed to one likely to live without care? Then certainly the trauma victim gets care instead of the young and strong teen who has a bad fever. There would seem to be a better chance of saving both lives when the one most likely to die without care is chosen over the one most likely to live with care.
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| May 9, 2008 @ 5:58 PM |
Who will live and who will die in a flu pandemic |
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Gallows_Humor
Posts: 14,498
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As far as doing what is right for everyone? Can we get a consensus on what that is? Or do we just pick an opinion? Or we let might decide right?
the concensus is....
To prepare, hospitals should designate a triage team with the Godlike task of deciding who will and who won't get lifesaving care, the task force wrote. Those out of luck are the people at high risk of death and a slim chance of long-term survival. But the recommendations get much more specific, and include:
_People older than 85.
_Those with severe trauma, which could include critical injuries from car crashes and shootings.
_Severely burned patients older than 60.
_Those with severe mental impairment, which could include advanced Alzheimer's disease.
_Those with a severe chronic disease, such as advanced heart failure, lung disease or poorly controlled diabetes.
which one of these do you disagree with?
Should not the question rather be as to whether care is given to one likely to die without care as opposed to one likely to live without care? Then certainly the trauma victim gets care instead of the young and strong teen who has a bad fever.
please do not play games here.. this (to me) is a serious thread..
In a true flu pandemic.. a teen with a high fever will stay home..take aspirin and drink plenty of fluids monitoring his fever..making sure that it does not go too high.. using ice water, cold compresses and cool baths if necessary... If he shows up at a hospital..he will never even make it through the front door
We are talking about people who need hospital care or will die here.. and tough choices...
the nice grandma who needs a ventilator.. or the young child who equally needs a ventilator.. The old geezer who wants a tamiflu pill or the young child...
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| May 9, 2008 @ 6:05 PM |
Who will live and who will die in a flu pandemic
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Paralegal_at_Law
Posts: 6,273
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If there is any rationing, leftists should be put on the list at the bottom; after all when medication is paid for with government funds, shouldn't the loyalists have priority over the "Hate America" domestic enemy Fifth Collumnists?
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| May 9, 2008 @ 6:12 PM |
Who will live and who will die in a flu pandemic |
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burnslikethesun
Posts: 13,109
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Who will live and who will die in a flu pandemic Those that have subjected them self to the ritual poisoning, which has weakened their immune system will be the first to choke off.
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| May 9, 2008 @ 6:17 PM |
Who will live and who will die in a flu pandemic
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lacyvsq
Posts: 6,687
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That is certainly not a consensus of right for everyone. That is a consensus among a few doctors who got together and decided they could provide standards for everyone.
which one of these do you disagree with?
Just two -- as those are the only classes of people for whom I would advise hospital treatment under any circumstances:
_Those with severe trauma, which could include critical injuries from car crashes and shootings.
_Severely burned patients older than 60.
As far as whether grandma or child gets the vent? The decision is made on evaluation of who is most likely to die without it, who is most likely to live without it. If it is a toss-up, then yes, let it go to the child. Tamiflu? Vaccines? Give that garbage to the people who most want to die.
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| May 9, 2008 @ 6:19 PM |
Who will live and who will die in a flu pandemic |
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burnslikethesun
Posts: 13,109
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Im sorry I was trying to pay attention but your just to damn distracting. what was that?
*insert drooly facy here*
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| May 9, 2008 @ 6:25 PM |
Who will live and who will die in a flu pandemic
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lacyvsq
Posts: 6,687
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Who will live and who will die in a flu pandemic Those that have subjected them self to the ritual poisoning, which has weakened their immune system will be the first to choke off.
And if the measures of those physicians who think they know how scarce resources should be allocated are implemented, trauma and burn victims who might have lived under non-pandemic times will also perish.
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| May 9, 2008 @ 6:53 PM |
Who will live and who will die in a flu pandemic |
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Gallows_Humor
Posts: 14,498
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in a flu pandemic.. those trauma victims will contract the flu. especially if they are in the hospital ...and with the double whammy of their injuries, and the flu..will most assuredly die... no matter what is done, or not done.... 
That is a consensus among a few doctors who got together and decided they could provide standards for everyone.
more than just a few doctors...
Now, an influential group of physicians has drafted a grimly specific list of recommendations for which patients wouldn't be treated. They include the very elderly, seriously hurt trauma victims, severely burned patients and those with severe dementia.
The suggested list was compiled by a task force whose members come from prestigious universities, medical groups, the military and government agencies. They include the Department of Homeland Security, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the Department of Health and Human Services.
The proposed guidelines are designed to be a blueprint for hospitals "so that everybody will be thinking in the same way" when pandemic flu or another widespread health care disaster hits, said Dr. Asha Devereaux. She is a critical care specialist in San Diego and lead writer of the task force report.
.....
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| May 9, 2008 @ 6:58 PM |
Who will live and who will die in a flu pandemic
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lacyvsq
Posts: 6,687
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more than just a few doctors...
Oh really? How many?
....and they are representative of everyone?
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| May 9, 2008 @ 8:55 PM |
Who will live and who will die in a flu pandemic |
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SensualGemini
Posts: 7,446
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...Outside of being a trauma victim, preparations in advance will allow people a far better chance at survival... rather than being totally dependent on what may or may not be available during or after some unforeseen catastrophe as a serious flue outbreak.
...Katrina was a very recent example of a small catastrophe, that left seemingly helpless people bewildered and many still discussing about the inadequacies of our government to "take care" of us.
...Get a clue, in that when push comes to shove, there is only you that will be responsible for you... unless you have someone that knows what to do and even then, you should learn to function as they do and not be totally dependent upon them.
========
...In consistency with the article BJ posted and not the actual thread title, "if a mass casualty critical care event were to occur tomorrow." it will be handled the same as a MASH unit handles mass casualties... those that stand a chance at survival with immediate care will be treated first, while those with less traumatic injuries will be treated later; some by even floor staff and volunteers
...Those that stand no chance of survival, are typically given morphine or drugs to address the pain as they succumb to their injuries. When the pain drugs run out, the victims will be left to their own body endorphins and that is the way it is.
...Walk into any hospital emergency room and this is already practiced by the waiting area to be treated. If you have serious chest pain, gunshot wound, etc., you will be treated before the person that has the flue by the staff on hand.
...Should the hospitals and health clinics become full, with equipment and supplies running out, expect veterinary clinics and equipment to help, while mandatory overtime to the manufactures of all needed equipment and supplies. The animal industry is huge, where warehouses are full of supplies that can also be utilized. Adjacent houses and properties will be converted under martial law, that would already be in effect, where beds, cots, tents, tables, linens, etc., anything that is available will be put into service by those competent enough to decide... or not and more people will die.
...Depending on Homeland Security to address the situation will quickly realize that leaders by ego and political status are the idiots of the system.
...In the end, it becomes the will to live and survival by the strongest, that are being taken care of by those with dedication, experience and talent... and helped by those with the will to do so.
PS: Did anyone really expect to get out of this world alive anyway?
[Edited on 5/9/2008 9:06 PM]
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| May 9, 2008 @ 9:14 PM |
Who will live and who will die in a flu pandemic
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lefthandedluckie
Posts: 6,386
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eastham...said this..."This type of planning is extremely necessary. Triaging patients on the battlefield or in the city emergency room is a necessity. If you have one ventilator and two patients who need it -- one who will live if given care and one who will die no matter the care, then you must give the machine to the individual who will benefit from it.
Disaster preparedness is crucial. If the nursing home in New Orleans had been compelled to develop an evacuation plan years earlier and continued to train the employees to implement that plan, those people would not have died."....!!
It is not a situation of Democrat, republican, black or white. It is as "eastham" has stated. Triage is decided by a Professional Doctor! This choice will have to be made in disasters.
I, for one, will trust a Doctors judgement! I have seen them under great strain in combat situations make these judgements. NO, they are not all seeing and all knowing. Mistakes can and will be made. People die and people live....and life goes on!!
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| May 9, 2008 @ 9:24 PM |
Who will live and who will die in a flu pandemic |
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BandTMom
Posts: 39,447
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Most of the time, Triage is headed by a nurse. 
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