| Jul 4 @ 1:57 PM |
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Nightowl001
Posts: 4,134
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They were not pulled out though. Wrong again. And it's not all just about numbers, it's about capabilities and training. From: Profile of Delta Force
Early 2002: Most of Task Force 5 Elite Force Is Redeployed from Afghanistan to Iraq
Most of Task Force 5’s members are called home from Afghanistan to prepare for operations in Iraq. In early 2002, there were roughly 150 Task Force 5 commandos in Afghanistan. After the massive transfer, Task Force 5’s numbers dip to as low as 30 men. Task Force 5 is a top-secret elite group that includes CIA paramilitary units and military “special mission units,” or SMUs. One of the SMUs is the former Delta Force. The name of the other unit, which specializes in human and technical intelligence operations, is not known. The Washington Post will later note, “These elite forces, along with the battlefield intelligence technology of Predator and Global Hawk drone aircraft, were the scarcest tools of the hunt for jihadists along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border.” According to Flynt Leverett, a career CIA analyst assigned to the State Deparmtent, “There is a direct consequence for us having taken these guys out prematurely.
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| Jul 4 @ 2:04 PM |
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SweetNapaGuy
Posts: 4,554
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So the quality of the individual cells is equally up to the challenge of planning another 9/11 attack? How faulty is that reasoning? Not everyone could have pulled off 9/11.
Capture or kill the masterminds, the people who can plan, finance, recruit. A bunch of individual cells, with leaders of average capability, will accomplish a lot less than the groups with the breadth of intelligence, experience, and contacts as are the leaders of AQ.
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| Jul 4 @ 2:14 PM |
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Novalite
Posts: 3,093
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NO Wrong again. And it's not all just about numbers, it's about capabilities and training.
And replaced by other nations Special forces
But the United States is well aware of Canada's Joint Task Force 2 (JTF2). The U.S. was impressed by JTF2's performance in Afghanistan and had its eye on the unit for its campaign in Iraq.
This is Canada's special force, our elite fighters. They are selected and trained as rigorously as any elite force in the world, which includes Britain's Special Air Service (SAS) and, in the United States, the Green Berets, Rangers and Delta Force.
In July 2005, Chief of Defence Staff. Gen. Rick Hillier confirmed that members of JTF2 would be part of a new Canadian deployment heading to Afghanistan to fight the remnants of the Taliban and supporters of al-Qaeda.
The Canadians also entered caves looking for enemy forces and intelligence. One of their missions, called Operation Anaconda, took place last March when JTF2 soldiers stationed themselves high in the Afghanistan mountains to feed information to army units on the ground.
The Canadians worked with U.S. Navy commandos and elite forces from Australia. U.S. Navy Commander Kerry Metz, director of operations for Task Force K-Bar, praised the work of the "foreign" commandos to members of Congress.
"We were fortunate to have the finest special operators from a coalition of seven nations," Metz said. "We challenged our operators to conduct missions in some of the most hostile environments ever operated in. For example, we had special reconnaissance teams operating in the mountains of Afghanistan above 10,000 feet for extended periods without resupply."
and from Wilki
Afghanistan: 2001–present
Forty JTF2 Operators were sent to Afghanistan in December 2001, two months after then Minister of Defence, Art Eggleton, announced that Canada would be sending troops to Afghanistan to aid the removal of the Taliban. The CF does not comment on what other SOF units JTF2 works with but it is likely that its American and British counterparts and possibly SOF units from other NATO countries.
In 2004, an estimated 40 members of JTF2 serving with Task Force KBAR were awarded the Presidential Unit Citation by the United States government for service in Afghanistan. However, these members were not allowed to wear their ribbons due to fears by the Canadian government that the award would identify them as members of the counter-terrorist unit.[6]
Very little is known on JTF2 operations in Afghanistan, but during a conference the Chief of Defence Staff, General Rick Hillier, stated that JTF2 is in "high demand" and that they are considered to be "world class." He went on to say that the unit is providing direct support to the Afghanistan government and that targeting the Taliban leadership in southern Afghanistan. He stated that "trying to help neutralize those leaders is a key part of their role and that's what they will continue to do."
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| Jul 4 @ 2:19 PM |
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Novalite
Posts: 3,093
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SNG So the quality of the individual cells is equally up to the challenge of planning another 9/11 attack?
Sad to say but yes.
SNG How faulty is that reasoning? Not everyone could have pulled off 9/11.
Surely you are not going to tell me tht Osama Bin Laden is the smartest man in the world? And that gulag'd in some cave he has access to communicate back and forth with ease with the people he needs to carry out the next 911 given that his communiques are often month's old when they come at all?
SNGCapture or kill the masterminds, the people who can plan, finance, recruit. A bunch of individual cells, with leaders of average capability, will accomplish a lot less than the groups with the breadth of intelligence, experience, and contacts as are the leaders of AQ.
I agree however, at what price? A nuclear armed country of a fifth of a billion people going radical fundamentalist? No thanks. Only an idiot would consider that worth it.
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| Jul 4 @ 2:42 PM |
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Nightowl001
Posts: 4,134
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And replaced by other nations Replaced? What calendar do you use?
The 40 JTF2 personnel were there concurrent with the US special forces in late 2001 and 2002. They weren't sent to replace the US special forces pulled out in 2002. The other JTF2 unit mentioned in your post wasn't sent until 2005 or later. (All your posted link and article says is that it was confirmed they were to be part of a new deployment; didn't say when they were going.)
And whether or not any other nations sent special forces to the region does not negate the fact that our special forces were pulled out of Afghanistan and re-deployed to Iraq, which you flatly asserted they hadn't been and which a CIA analyst flatly asserted was to the detriment of the stated mission goals in Afghanistan. There's no spin that'll cover that up.
at what price? A nuclear armed country of a fifth of a billion people going radical fundamentalist? What nuclear-armed country was going to become radical fundamentalist if we went after the Al Queda leadership?  That makes no sense at all.
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| Jul 4 @ 2:46 PM |
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jaybird777
Posts: 1,041
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So now that Iraq is just about able to do their own security and things are safer for this guy's fellow soldiers you wish to pull out, risk the country falling into anarchy and ultimately going Qutbist. Using oil revenues to arm themselves and take over other countries as well as supporting global terrorism not with the bits of change they get from Saudi Mosques but with trillions of petro dollars and WMD purchased as part and parcel of oil deals with China, Russia and the EU? Wouldn't be allowed to happen, in short, this soldier's children would be returning to fight a better armed foe than he faced.
All because you didn't do the job right when it was easiest.
Tha'ts right. We need to get our troops out NOW!
I ain't interested in all these wonderful things that might happen if the stay "just a little bit longer" -or- "If we put in just a lil bit more troops an money"
It's been 6 friggin years.
ANything that was gonna happen shoulda already happened.
I ain't interest in what another 6 years (or even McCain's 100 years) would bring us.
6 years is plenty. Bring em home. Bring em all home, and bring em home now.
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| Jul 4 @ 2:54 PM |
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Novalite
Posts: 3,093
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NO Replaced? What calendar do you use?
The one in the article which you obviously did not read. The one that refers to operations in 2004 and prior.
NOAnd whether or not any other nations sent special forces to the region does not negate the fact that our special forces were pulled out of Afghanistan and re-deployed to Iraq, which you flatly asserted they hadn't been and which a CIA analyst flatly asserted was to the detriment of the stated mission goals in Afghanistan. There's no spin that'll cover that up.
I didn't deny that. I said the total number of troops in Afghanistan is more now than it was during the invasion.
NOWhat nuclear-armed country was going to become radical fundamentalist if we went after the Al Queda leadership? That makes no sense at all.
Do you for a second believe that Pakistan is a stable democracy with India pointing nukes at their ass and radicals (with a forty five percent support base in the nation and pretty much a hundred percent in the Pashtun) running around trying to stir up trouble with India along with terrorist attacks daily amongst the general population? These people are itching for the US or the Pakistani forces to move into their area en masse so they can scream foul and say 'look it's the crusaders coming! Let's overthrow the government and install a Qutbist entity to defend ourselves!' Pashtun is a big region with lots of people and the rest of the country is not exactly Hollywood swingers either. Radicals, Qutbists, undecideds, nationalists and moderates all over. It only takes a bit of a threat to swing from undecided to radical if you believe Musharif has sold out, the Hindus are attacking or that the crusaders are coming and then it all goes up in flames. A sixth of a billion people all under a radical Qutbist, terrorist supporting government with nukes with a nervous India just waiting for an attack before they let loose. I'd say that that is a lot to be worried about wouldn't you? And no, it is nothing like Iraq where a tenth of a percent of a 25 million population is running around stirring the pot with the rest just trying to get on with their lives.
There's something about a couple of hundred million people with nukes and a billion people with nukes on the razor's edge pointing them at each other on a hair trigger with a third faction determined to stir it all up by bombing India's Parliament and such that just makes me somewhat concerned. I mean, being in the most volatile region on earth with that combination one would think that anything that can add to stabilize that particular situation would be better than deliberately destabilizing it like you and SNG advocate just to get your one guy who is at best, shitting in a cave somewhere sending out Col Kurtz like ramblings via eight track tapes on a three week late camel wouldn't you think?
Back to your question, nobody knows what the future holds however, I can tell you that if you put your dick in a door and slam it shut it will be statistically more painful than if you put it in a more female location. In short, unless absolutely necessary, you don't stir this pot as there is no way you can fix it if it breaks.
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| Jul 4 @ 3:05 PM |
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nah12
Posts: 3,973
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it's easier to do a job right the first time than it is to revisit it... but even so most had rather half-ass it and let someone else have to deal with it later .. then there are those that will not even do it to start with and let everything go to hell in a hand basket so they can bitch and moan about it later ...
Elders always taught that if you start a job you finish it and finish it right.... guess that got lost also...
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| Jul 4 @ 3:16 PM |
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alivenwell351
Posts: 1,514
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Elders always taught that if you start a job you finish it and finish it right
I'm guessing those same Elders would have also taught that a job should also be done right...from START to finish...with a plan concocted by SOMEONE WHO KNOWS WHAT HE/SHE IS DOING....something that was NOT done with the Iraq fiasco.
That being said, we're stuck there for the foreseeable future, despite what anyone tries to say. I'm guessing the Elders would have taught that once you make a mess, you don't leave it for someone else to clean up...you clean it up yourself.
[Edited on 7/4/2008 3:17 PM]
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| Jul 4 @ 3:17 PM |
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jaybird777
Posts: 1,041
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If you can't get it done in 6 years with 300 billion dollars, then its time to call it a day.
Enough is enough
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| Jul 4 @ 3:33 PM |
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Novalite
Posts: 3,093
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If you can't get it done in 6 years with 300 billion dollars, then its time to call it a day.
So three hundred billion was your limit. I take it that when it was 290 Billion you were fine with it or, were you simply against it no matter what it cost?
And you don't mind taking a chance that you'd be throwing all that money away for nothing?
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| Jul 4 @ 3:33 PM |
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 15,333
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My elders taught me that throwing good money after bad is foolishness...I was taught not to do a half-assed job of anything I was doing, but for instance, my parents were 100% behind me on giving up on my marriage..,,staying in a no-win situation is just plain crazy. Staying in Iraq, expecting it to turn into a true democracy because we stayed, is totally self-delusion that people are paying for with their lives.
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| Jul 4 @ 3:34 PM |
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Nightowl001
Posts: 4,134
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I didn't deny that. I said the total number of troops in Afghanistan is more now than it was during the invasion.
SNG
We had the troops to take Bora Bora (special forces and the alpine troops). Nova
It was a military failure SNG, not a political one.
SNG
Then we pulled them out to invade Iraq.
Nova. They were not pulled out though. There were less US troops in Afghanistan then than there is now. Okay, so SNG says we had the troops to do the job, and specifically mentions special forces and alpine troops, and states we pulled them out, and you stated flatly, "They were not pulled out though," and then injected a completely unrelated point? I get it. You just made a flatly wrong assertion, then tossed out some bullshit that didn't have anything to do with the point. And now you backpedal and say "I didn't say that." Next you'll claim "Everyone else knew what I meant!" THEN you'll somehow try to insinuate that because I actually read what it says and you write nonsense the problem of your abhorrent English skills is my problem.
The one in the article which you obviously did not read. The one that refers to operations in 2004 and prior. You mean the one in Wiki that siaid:
Forty JTF2 Operators were sent to Afghanistan in December 2001, two months after then Minister of Defence, Art Eggleton, announced that Canada would be sending troops to Afghanistan to aid the removal of the Taliban. The CF does not comment on what other SOF units JTF2 works with but it is likely that its American and British counterparts and possibly SOF units from other NATO countries. [these are the troops that were serving concurrently of which I spoke, not sent to make up for the withdrawal of US troops in 2002]
In 2004, an estimated 40 members of JTF2 serving with Task Force KBAR were awarded the Presidential Unit Citation by the United States government for service in Afghanistan. However, these members were not allowed to wear their ribbons due to fears by the Canadian government that the award would identify them as members of the counter-terrorist unit [When they were awarded medals tells me nothing about when they were in-country. There is nothing to distinguish this group from the forty originally mentioned as having served concurrently with US troops. In fact, the implication is these are the forty JTF2 personnel sent in 2001. That or we have to assume the original group wasn't recognized for their service, while a later group was?] Not to mention that we're talking about less than half the force being pulled out being "replaced" if that was even the case (and you have not demonstrated that it was).
And none of that addresses the very valid issue of the fact that WE had the troops there, and we pulled OUR troops out to the detriment of the mission goal. Whether they were or weren't replaced by members of other nations, they weren't pulled out because they were tired, or worn down, or needed a break. They were pulled out to pursue Shrub's Middle East agenda, making every word out of Shrub's putrid mouth about waging a "war on terror" a lie.
Okay, that's enough for one day. Once again it is impressed upon me just how completely impossible it is to "fix stupid." As I've said before, you'll probably now wander off with a disjointed shoulder from patting yourself on the back at having "proven" me wrong somehow, and I'll just leave it to all the people who can actually read to see the obvious fallacy of that. You said something piss-mouthed to me about being "an angry guy." I can see why you're so happy with yourself, actually. Ignorance (in this instance, being a lack of recognition of reality, whether through actual ignorance [i.e. lack of knowledge] or delusion) is bliss.
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| Jul 4 @ 3:45 PM |
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jaybird777
Posts: 1,041
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So three hundred billion was your limit. I take it that when it was 290 Billion you were fine with it or, were you simply against it no matter what it cost?
And you don't mind taking a chance that you'd be throwing all that money away for nothing? My limit was passed long back, but no unse crying about that now
My elders taught me that throwing good money after bad is foolishness...
Smart elders. Some folks on here could lisse to em
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| Jul 4 @ 3:49 PM |
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marylou
Posts: 10,629
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If you an "MaryLou" ain't got your blood appetite apeased yet, then it's F*&% you
Note literally. Pathetic old hags ain't my type .........Hey settle down JAY......my last comment wasnt a proposal............. 
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| Jul 4 @ 4:03 PM |
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jaybird777
Posts: 1,041
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Let me be, Mary Lou
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| Jul 4 @ 4:09 PM |
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lacyvsq
Posts: 4,304
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Not everyone could have pulled off 9/11.
No, it requires some skillful insiders to wire three skyscrapers for complete demolition and some heavy-hitters to keep our air defense at bay and some clout to have the investigation handled by people who can cover-up and obfuscate.
Capture or kill the masterminds, the people who can plan, finance, recruit. A bunch of individual cells, with leaders of average capability, will accomplish a lot less than the groups with the breadth of intelligence, experience, and contacts as are the leaders of AQ.
The foxes are entrusted to guard the henhouse...We have done such a pathetic job of investigation of 9/11 that a third of the people think the OBL conspiracy theory is as ridiculous as the lone gun theory of JFK's assassination.
The masterminds of 9/11 are still planning, financing and recruiting -- likely stirring up more dust clouds in anticipation of WWIII. We should be looking for them a lot closer to home.
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| Jul 4 @ 4:18 PM |
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Novalite
Posts: 3,093
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One of their missions, called Operation Anaconda, took place last March when JTF2 soldiers stationed themselves high in the Afghanistan mountains to feed information to army units on the ground.
'Last March' is 2004.
US Troop presence
Following the 2001 ouster of the Taliban, the U.S. had fewer than 10,000 troops in the country, and no real troop presence in the volatile south. But troop levels have been rising steadily the last two years as violence has increased.
Now the US has thirty thousand troops in the country. More than they did during the invasion.
NOOkay, so SNG says we had the troops to do the job, and specifically mentions special forces and alpine troops, and states we pulled them out, and you stated flatly, "They were not pulled out though," and then injected a completely unrelated point? I get it. You just made a flatly wrong assertion, then tossed out some bullshit that didn't have anything to do with the point. And now you backpedal and say "I didn't say that." Next you'll claim "Everyone else knew what I meant!" THEN you'll somehow try to insinuate that because I actually read what it says and you write nonsense the problem of your abhorrent English skills is my problem.
They weren't because there were only like forty of them for crying out loud! What is it that you and your idiot ilk don't get/ Tora Bora wasn't a campaign that had a massive US military prresnece, it was a Special Forces led Afghan Warlord backed operation that failed because of the Afghans making side deals and being unwilling to put their own men (which is their only asset) at risk and such. Not because the US two years later, the US moved into iraq while leaving twice as many troops in Afghanistan then were there during the Topra Bora failiure
Here, read up on a few articles about it for cryng out loud so you don't come off so stupid. Nightowl.
Geesh.
The Times
Now, as the last major battle of the war in Afghanistan began, hidden from view inside the caves were an estimated 1,500 to 2,000 well-trained, well-armed men. A mile below, at the base of the caves, some three dozen U.S. Special Forces troops fanned out. They were the only ground forces that senior American military leaders had committed to the Tora Bora campaign.
NOAnd none of that addresses the very valid issue of the fact that WE had the troops there, and we pulled OUR troops out to the detriment of the mission goal.
Ya, all three dozen of them.
Okay, that's enough for one day. Once again it is impressed upon me just how completely impossible it is to "fix stupid."
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| Jul 4 @ 5:06 PM |
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SensualGemini
Posts: 3,514
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...When the job is not being done right, you fire the one in charge and put someone in that can do the job right and get it over with... rather than quitting.
...As long as this country is dependent for foreign oil as an energy supply, having a base in Iraq or Saudi Arabia (which was closed) is more imperative to national security than the bases we have maintained in Korea, Germany, Japan, etc. for over 60 years.
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Night: What nuclear-armed country was going to become radical fundamentalist if we went after the Al Queda leadership?
...Al Queda was/is simply the flavor of the day for terrorist groups that are anti-western world. The main denominator, or excuse today, is Israel, was Lebanon and will be anyone that is non-Muslim on ancient Arab soil. The Saudi Arabian government, as well as several governments in Africa are on their list.
...We live in today, while attempting to procure tomorrow, while Muslim radicals live by the same ideology of a thousand years ago with King Richard being an example to unite against the infidels. It is not going to cease as long as any non-Muslim nation exists on "Arab soil."
...Have no doubt, that Africa is the next growing participation for any democracy of sorts that is occupied by other than Muslim; in fact, we have been there in limited capacity for some time. Obama personally endorsed his cousin Odinga, who lost the election and immediately, the slaughter of Christians began. Without a doubt, Obama will have us in Africa, but on which side?
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...We have an all voluntary military force and unless the arm chair warriors want to see this country fold under economic conditions induced by lack of energy supplies, those energy supplies have to be secured for said national security, or as a way of life as you know it to be.
...The left is more than responsible for the energy shortages of today by fighting any nuclear, any further off shore drilling for oil, any new refineries, etc., while they consume the same energy supplies as anyone else, as well as consume the majority of the "giveaway programs" which add to our $10 Trillion plus national debt owed by the people, all the people.
...So, can one conclude this war is all about securing oil? ... Certainly a good part of it is, as they have it and we, the world needs it; just as they need our food supply. Yet, as in Kuwait, the people live well, prosperous beyond any Iraq or Iranian civilian's comprehension, because the wealth is not held by just a few.
...Whereas in fact, the Left, the endorsers of Socialism should be encouraging the removal of the Saddams for the spreading of the wealth to the people, all the people, while securing the energy supplies for America. Just put someone in as Commander in Chief, who knows what in hell they are doing, while eliminating the war profiteers that endorse this perpetual war BS. Go in, kick their asses, disarm the country as even Iraq was a conquered nation, build an infrastructure that exports the oil at market prices, spread the wealth to the people and all of this perpetual cat and mouse crap will cease.
...Otherwise, expect $10 gas, wood or coal heat, walk to work if you have a job that has not been closed or displaced by 30 million and rising Illegal's (who also use these resources), diminished social programs, decreased heath care, etc. Take off the rose colored glasses, as everything evolves around energy...
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| Jul 4 @ 5:26 PM |
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Nightowl001
Posts: 4,134
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They weren't because there were only like forty of them for crying out loud! What is it that you and your idiot ilk don't get/ Tora Bora wasn't a campaign that had a massive US military prresnece, .... Ya, all three dozen of them. In early 2002, there were roughly 150 Task Force 5 commandos in Afghanistan. From the quoted link above at the top of this very page of this thread. Are you deliberately trying to misrepresent our presence there, or just plain stupid?
From the NYT, 12/16/2001: At least 100 American and British special forces troops are steadily closing in on the last al-Qa'eda hideouts, using an array of high-technology weaponry and operating most intensely at night. Among those involved in the push are members of the elite Delta Force, the Green Berets, whose job is to call in American air strikes, and Marine snipers with rifles accurate at a range of almost a mile.
A unit of Navy Seals, Team Six, specially trained in the art of "snatch and abduction", is also in the area to help seize al-Qa'eda leaders. The Tora Bora campaign was just one battle, not our entire presence in Afghanistan. The strategic errors made in the Tora Bora campaign, it seems to me, would have called for INCREASING our Specail Forces troops in that region, from the other areas in Afghanistan, where we had a Special Forces strength totalling approximately 150, not pulling them out and sending them to Iraq!
.
One of their missions, called Operation Anaconda, took place last March when JTF2 soldiers stationed themselves high in the Afghanistan mountains to feed information to army units on the ground.
'Last March' is 2004.
From: http://circ.jmellon.com/docs/view.asp?id=859
It's not the first time that an announcement by U.S. officials have forced the Canadian military to play catch-up on releasing information. In March, 2002 then U.S. Gen. Tommy Franks announced at a televised press conference that Canadian special forces were involved in Operation Anaconda, a major assault against enemy troops in Afghanistan. Canadian military officials, however, refused to confirm what Franks announced, only later having to reverse that stance and acknowledge JTF2 was indeed involved in the mission. And again, you reveal complete and utter ignorance of the realities of the situation. You fail to substantiate your assertion that the US Special Forces troops pulled out for redeployment were replaced by Special Forces units from other UN countries, and even if they were, it doesn't change the fact that they were pulled out to the detriment of the mission objective in order to pursue this administration's Middle East agenda. They were not withdrawn for any other reason, and any additional troops from any other country should have been to support the overall UN mission of finding and eradicating the leaders of Al Queda.
The article you're quoting from was not written in, but UPDATED in 2005, and apparently not edited very well, as it did not remove the reference to "last March." Your failure to fact check before disseminating bad information, however, is exemplary of why the internet is such a crappy research tool for people with limited comprehension of written English. You miss pertinent points and then run around claiming you have "facts" to back you up. What's worse is that even then you refuse to ever concede that you were wrong.
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