| Jun 28 @ 5:44 PM |
"It's not religious it's spiritual" aka your rights are about to be violated
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onoudn
Posts: 3,857
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When ever the disclaimer that something is not religious but spiritual is used it always means that some one is about to have their religious rights violated. Under the Bush Administration fundamentalist Christians, who are also public servants, have had a free pass to subject the public to blatant acts of religious proselytizing. It's sad and pathetic really when you think of it. It means that there are those who have so little faith that that feel the need to basically break the law by conditioning providing government service on participation in religious activities.
As I've mentioned countless times, regardless of whether you agree or not, the law of the land is separation between church and state. It's not hard to comply with this law. People of minority faiths find a way to talk about their beliefs all the time without offending people. Basically, if you work for a government entity all you have to do is follow the guidelines as provided by the law. Most, if not all, government entities in America have strict rules about such discusssion already in place. These rules typically prohibit tax dollars being used for religious activities. It's simple really.
But some people would rather make up excuses or use absurd disclaimers like "it's not religious it's spiritual". Why else would anyone feel the need to make such a statement unless they knew in their hearts of hearts that it wasn't true ? If you really want to avoid offending people you could find a way
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| Jun 28 @ 10:35 PM |
"It's not religious it's spiritual" aka your rights are about to be violated |
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crouchingtiger
Posts: 177
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you don't provide a link so what are you talking about?
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| Jun 28 @ 10:43 PM |
"It's not religious it's spiritual" aka your rights are about to be violated
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Paralegal_at_Law
Posts: 5,018
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People of minority faiths find a way to talk about their beliefs all the time without offending people.
What part of "G*D Damn America" and Black Liberation Theology did you NOT understand is very repugnant on its face to mainstream America?
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| Jun 29 @ 2:08 PM |
"It's not religious it's spiritual" aka your rights are about to be violated |
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onoudn
Posts: 3,857
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By "minority faith" I meant faiths like Buddhism with a minority of those who practice in comparision to other faith in America, such as Christianity.
you don't provide a link so what are you talking about?
There is no link. I'm speaking from personal experience, my own personal opinion as well as what is common knowledge of how the Bush Administration has all but obliterated the separation of Church and State.
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| Jun 29 @ 2:52 PM |
"It's not religious it's spiritual" aka your rights are about to be violated
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onoudn
Posts: 3,857
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Here is an example of how Bush has obliterated The Separation of Church and State.
GW Bush - The Jesus Factor - Faith-Based Initiative
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| Jun 29 @ 8:01 PM |
"It's not religious it's spiritual" aka your rights are about to be violated |
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Paralegal_at_Law
Posts: 5,018
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Shame on you Onoudn, for alleging that equality of faith friendly recipients of federal dollars with secular organizations "has obliterated The Separation of Church and State."
Equality means same as, without any application of prejudice.
The First Amendment does not require the government to be hostile to religion, only to be neutral, neither opposed to, nor an advocate of, any particular religious faith.
And the equal protection under the laws clause amplifies that a secular charity or benevolent organization must be considered on the same plain as a faith friendly charitable or benevolent organization.
The government has been providing money to students attending Notre Dame University, Catholic Jesuit institution of higher education for many years. So, Onoudn, do you advocate that student loans and grants to educational institutions should exclude all of the church sponsored colleges and universities and be made only to state universities, colleges, and local community colleges?
Equal means equal, not discriminated against.
Your remarks were not accurate at all.
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| Jun 29 @ 11:54 PM |
"It's not religious it's spiritual" aka your rights are about to be violated
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uab_5
Posts: 2,371
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PAL said:
Equality means same as, without any application of prejudice.
The First Amendment does not require the government to be hostile to religion, only to be neutral, neither opposed to, nor an advocate of, any particular religious faith.
And the equal protection under the laws clause amplifies that a secular charity or benevolent organization must be considered on the same plain as a faith friendly charitable or benevolent organization.
Well said. 
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| Jun 30 @ 12:59 PM |
"It's not religious it's spiritual" aka your rights are about to be violated |
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onoudn
Posts: 3,857
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So, Onoudn, do you advocate that student loans and grants to educational institutions should exclude all of the church sponsored colleges and universities and be made only to state universities, colleges, and local community colleges?
What I'm advocating simply is that public servants adhere to the policies that are already in place. Most notably , in my case, when I go to the Veterans Administration to see a doctor I shouldn't have to be subjected to blantant acts of proselytizing. Example: In a urgi-care unit located in Sacramento California I wait three hours to be seen for food poisoning. When the Doctor finally saw me he kept bringing God up and assuring me that the wait was out of his control, as he wouldn't deliberately make any patient wait longer than they had to because he was a Christian.
Example: At the Veteran clinic in Las Vegas if you check in to the 3F unit due to stress you are required to attend madatory meetings one of which is facilitated by a Chaplain who participation cues included going around the room asking patients if God would grant certain prayers. Patients are also required to attend 12-step meeting regardless of whether they have substance abuse issues where the Lords Prayer is done and forced to sit through readings of so-called "thought of the day" which are essentially prayers asking God's guidance.
Numerous courts have determined that forced participation in 12-step meeting by the government is a violation of church and state. Namely because the 12-step fellowship has been found to be a religious sect. Federal employee's try to deliberately evade compliance with federal guidelines by claiming that the religious activities they are forcing on clients is "not religious but spiritual", a claim that has be denouced by the same courts that rules against forced participation of 12-step style meetings and the like.
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| Jun 30 @ 2:47 PM |
"It's not religious it's spiritual" aka your rights are about to be violated
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uab_5
Posts: 2,371
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Still fightin' the system, eh?
What ya scared of? That a little faith might force you to change your evil ways?
Look around.
How many hospitals and colleges were founded by the Methodist Church and still receive government funding?
Or by the Roman Cathollics?
Way back when, or in Africa, or in my second home, Costa Rica, the healer was a doctor and a pastor rolled into one enchilada.
My dear friend and brother in Christ, Pastor Luis of the El Peje UMC, claims curing two woman of cancer based on faith healing alone.
Modern studies have proven time and time again that a strong spirit will aid in beating any disease as much as medication.
My mother held off MSfor fifteen years because she was such a trong willed woman. It took MS and cancer two years to kill her.
I give God credit for giving me a strong spirit and placing good doctos in my path for putting my alcoholism in remission for four years, and I've been stable on the same bipolar meds for over a year.
God, my doctors, and I beat those bitches down! 
BTW four years go I was exceptionally suicidal, violent, drunk, cowardly, manic, etc. 
You're STILL fretting 12-Step Programs, yet you claim soberity.
You still seem to have a lot of angst. Your "faithless" soberity program has turned you into little more than a dry drunk.
Give me all your money because it does say:
In God we trust!
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| Jun 30 @ 3:09 PM |
"It's not religious it's spiritual" aka your rights are about to be violated |
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eastham
Posts: 5,993
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How many hospitals and colleges were founded by the Methodist Church and still receive government funding?
Or by the Roman Cathollics?
Probably nearly all of them. If they have a residency program, they receive federal funding. If they treat Medicare or Medicaid patients, they receive federal funding. If they treat the uninsured, they receive federal funding. If they conduct clinical research, they are getting federal funding.
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| Jun 30 @ 3:21 PM |
"It's not religious it's spiritual" aka your rights are about to be violated
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onoudn
Posts: 3,857
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Just for the record:
President Bush himself has claimed that he became sober without the help of any program at all. It seems to be the order of the day for anyone in the 12-step program to misrepresent that the 12-step program is the only way to get truely clean and sober, and criticized and demonize anyone that claims they did so without the program. The 12-step program own literature confirms that only 5% of the people who use the program stay clean and sober. Medical journal put the number of those who get sober without the help of any program at 80%. The program claims not to be relgious but it is according to every single court that has heard the issue. That's a fact. Please note that I didn't have engage in any personal attack to make my point. The fact the money says " In God we trust" while relevant doesn't dispute the over all status of the law of the land which clearly states separtion of church and state. It would simply cost to much money to take In God we trust of money. I didn't put it there or create the current contrary.
state of affair. I'm a Veteran and a loyal American who has every right to dispute those things that I feel violate my rights. I'm no more fighting the system than any other American who has avail themselves of the right of dissent.
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| Jun 30 @ 5:20 PM |
"It's not religious it's spiritual" aka your rights are about to be violated |
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uab_5
Posts: 2,371
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Dubya is a dry drunk pure and simple.
In order to get sober, one must change the behavior that got one drunk to begin with.
Dubya is still a bully who shows little self confidence. He went after Iraq to show addy he had cojones.
He'll be 1st Steppin' it next March. 
I'm a disabled veteran and have every right to fight for what I deem is right; especially when it has saved my life.
First Amendment said:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Translation: Congress cannot take away Americans the freedom to express their religion, but no American is free from religion.
Example: the Jews can where their yalmukes and pray until their Star of David falls off in ear shot of me in a hospital. I can put up with it or leave, but no where can I raise a stink about it unless it is disrupive to the function at hand.
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| Jun 30 @ 10:09 PM |
"It's not religious it's spiritual" aka your rights are about to be violated
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onoudn
Posts: 3,857
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Art. 11. of the treaty of tripoli ...As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion,.....
If we follow the line of reasoning advance by certain closed minded 12-step religious zealots the majority of people who got clean and sober are dry drunks. That's absurd. Again the 12-step magazine "The Grapevine" states that only 5% of the people who use the 12-steps get clean and sober. The 12-steps simply does not work for everyone. Medical professional understand this and offer alternatives to people who do not like the religious aspects of the program. I question the quality of the recovery of someone who can't admit the truth that not everyone has to become clean and sober the same way they did, and feels the need to attack anyone that stays sober a different way than they did. From what I understand of the 12-steps such resentment can only lead to a relaspe. Accept the thing you can not change. Including all the court rulings that the 12-steps are religious and as such can not forced on American citizens. My God, clearly this is not a country where the government has the right to force religion on people.
[Edited on 6/30/2008 10:15 PM]
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| Jul 1 @ 1:15 AM |
"It's not religious it's spiritual" aka your rights are about to be violated |
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Say_Yes
Posts: 1,632
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What I'm advocating simply is that public servants adhere to the policies that are already in place. Most notably , in my case, when I go to the Veterans Administration to see a doctor I shouldn't have to be subjected to blantant acts of proselytizing. Example: In a urgi-care unit located in Sacramento California I wait three hours to be seen for food poisoning. When the Doctor finally saw me he kept bringing God up and assuring me that the wait was out of his control, as he wouldn't deliberately make any patient wait longer than they had to because he was a Christian.
Example: At the Veteran clinic in Las Vegas if you check in to the 3F unit due to stress you are required to attend madatory meetings one of which is facilitated by a Chaplain who participation cues included going around the room asking patients if God would grant certain prayers. Patients are also required to attend 12-step meeting regardless of whether they have substance abuse issues where the Lords Prayer is done and forced to sit through readings of so-called "thought of the day" which are essentially prayers asking God's guidance.
It really is a shame that Bush wrote those doctors and told them to do that. After all, I'm sure that prior to Bush, no doctor in the employment of the federal government ever did such a terrible thing. Not to worry, if Obama is elected president, no federal employee will ever mention god or religion to you ever again. The democrats will save you and set you free from all religion. After all, there was no religion in government while Clinton, Carter, Johnson, Kennedy...were in the oval office. I'm sure that all religious doctors will immediately leave the government, once Bush is out of office.
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| Jul 1 @ 3:08 PM |
"It's not religious it's spiritual" aka your rights are about to be violated
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Say_Yes
Posts: 1,632
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It seems that it is not just Bush that is in favor of "Faith Based Initiatives". Obama is jumping on the bandwagon as well.
Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama called for expanding President Bush's program steering federal social service dollars to religious groups and — in a move sure to cause controversy — supported some ability to hire and fire based on faith.
Obama unveiled his approach to getting religious charities more involved in government anti-poverty programs during a tour and remarks Tuesday at Eastside Community Ministry, which provides food, clothes, youth ministry and other services.
"The challenges we face today ... are simply too big for government to solve alone," Obama said. Obama's announcement is part of a series of events leading up to Friday's Fourth of July holiday that are focused on American values.
The candidate spent Monday talking about his vision of patriotism in the battleground state of Missouri. By twinning that with Tuesday's talk about faith in another battleground state, he was attempting to settle debate in two key areas where his beliefs have come under question while also trying to make inroads with constituencies that are traditionally loyal to Republicans and oppose Obama on other grounds.
But Obama's support for letting religious charities that receive federal funding consider religion in employment decisions could invite a protest from those in his own party who view such faith requirements as discrimination. Obama does not support requiring religious tests for recipients of aid nor using federal money to proselytize, according to a campaign fact sheet. He also only supports letting religious institutions hire and fire based on faith in the non-taxypayer funded portions of their activities, said a senior adviser to the campaign, who spoke on condition of anonymity to more freely describe the new policy.
Rev. Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, criticized Obama's proposed expansion of a program he said has undermined civil rights and civil liberties.
"I am disappointed that any presidential candidate would want to continue a failed policy of the Bush administration," he said. "It ought to be shut down, not continued." John DiIulio, who in 2001 was director of Bush's White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives, said Obama's plan "reminds me of much that was best in both then Vice President Al Gore's and then Texas Governor George W. Bush's respective first speeches on the subject in 1999," according to a statement from the Obama campaign.
Bush supports broader freedoms for taxpayer-funded religious charities. But he never got Congress to go along so he has conducted the program through administrative actions and executive orders.
David Kuo, a conservative Christian who was deputy director of Bush's Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives until 2003 and later became a critic of Bush's commitment to the cause, said Obama's position on hiring has the potential to be a major "Sister Souljah moment" for his campaign.
This is a reference to Bill Clinton's accusation in his 1992 presidential campaign that the hip hop artist incited violence against whites. Because Clinton said this before a black audience, it fed into an image of him as a bold politician who was willing to take risks and refused to pander.
"This is a massive deal," said Kuo, who is not an Obama adviser or supporter but was contacted by the campaign to review the new plan. Obama proposes to elevate the program to a "moral center" of his administration, by renaming it the Council for Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships, and changing training from occasional huge conferences to empowering larger religious charities to mentor smaller ones in their communities.
Saying social service spending has been shortchanged under Bush, he also proposes a $500 million per year program to provide summer learning for 1 million poor children to help close achievement gaps with white and wealthier students. A campaign fact sheet said he would pay for it by better managing surplus federal properties, reducing growth in the federal travel budget and streamlining the federal procurement process.
Like Bush, Obama was arguing that religious organizations can and should play a bigger role in serving the poor and meeting other social needs. "Because they're so close to the people, they're well-placed to offer help," he said. Kuo called Obama's approach smart, impressive and well thought-out but took a wait-and-see attitude about whether it would deliver. "When it comes to promises to help the poor, promises are easy," said Kuo, who wrote a 2006 book describing his frustration at what he called Bush's lackluster enthusiasm for the program. "The question is commitment." Obama also talked bluntly about the genesis of his Christian faith in his work as a community organizer in Chicago, and its importance to him now.
"In time, I came to see faith as being both a personal commitment to Christ and a commitment to my community; that while I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work," he said. Source
[Edited on 7/1/2008 3:18 PM]
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| Jul 1 @ 3:56 PM |
"It's not religious it's spiritual" aka your rights are about to be violated |
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onoudn
Posts: 3,857
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“I feel like God wants me to run for president. I can’t explain it, but I sense my country is gong to need me....I know it won’t be easy on me or my family, but God wants me to do it.” [5] Surrounded by born-again missionaries and with God, rather than the most basic tenets of American democracy providing a source of leadership, Bush has relentlessly developed policies based less on social needs than on a highly personal and narrowly moral sense of divine purpose. Using the privilege of executive action, he has aggressively attempted to evangelize the realm of social services. more
In other words Bush has sent a message to evangelical christians both privately and in federally funded institutions that they can evangelize while on the public dollar. Obama had said that he intends to expand socials services with a heavy emphasis on spirituality. But he has also said that this is not just a Christian nation. A comment btw that was taken out of context and used to suggest that he had links to terroist which he does not have. That is one reason why Obama gave his speech on patriotism yesterday. I'm a little anxious about Obama. But I don't think he is going to be as hostile to the separation of Church and State as Bush has been. Even Evangelical Christian agree that Bush is the most overtly religious President since Jimmy Carter.
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| Jul 1 @ 6:17 PM |
"It's not religious it's spiritual" aka your rights are about to be violated
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kattsmeow
Posts: 20,871
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Under the Bush Administration fundamentalist Christians, who are also public servants, have had a free pass to subject the public to blatant acts of religious proselytizing.
You have your rights though. Use them.
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| Jul 1 @ 6:42 PM |
"It's not religious it's spiritual" aka your rights are about to be violated |
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onoudn
Posts: 3,857
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You have your rights though. Use them.
I tried years trying to assert my rights. All it got me was being black-balled, harassed, denied services, and running my blood pressure up. It got to the point where it was almost not worth it anymore. Bush open the flood gates. His presidency was the last component to years of a right-wing Christian Conservatives movement hell bent on establising Christian dominion over America. Most people recognized that it's too much of a battle to fight and just allow the violation of their rights to go un-checked. They're at the VA, for instance, to get treatment not to wage a battle with the feds because their being preached at by staff.
I myself only begin to raise objection when it got to be too much. Meaning when it was happening everywhere in local, state, and federal institutions. With Bush in charge of the White-House and Republican in power, what chance did I have of being sucessful ? Better to just ignore them until the power shifts again to a more inclusive government. Too bad too because I ended up just feeling sorry for people that openly violated my rights and understand why there has to be a separtion of chruch and state.
[Edited on 7/1/2008 6:48 PM]
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| Jul 1 @ 8:36 PM |
"It's not religious it's spiritual" aka your rights are about to be violated
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kattsmeow
Posts: 20,871
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I understand about your problem with AA. ( I remember it from before).
What else are you talking about though?
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| Jul 1 @ 9:14 PM |
"It's not religious it's spiritual" aka your rights are about to be violated |
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nah12
Posts: 3,589
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 this is about what? 
sounds like someone is pissed they have a what, maybe drinking problem and what, AA didn't work for you? and who's fault is that if that is the facts? YOURS well of course it would not be yours right? so why the Bitchin?  is it about religion if so in no other time in my 52 years has religion been so outlawed and separated from so many public places...... and sorry to tell you just because you think it is your right to something it doesn't make it so or does it push you to head of the list for that service you demand to have.....
and i'm sorry but some utube link just is so not impressive......
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