| Nov 11, 2008 @ 9:21 AM |
What happened to the Bail out trickle down effect?
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KatiefromStafford
Posts: 2,750
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Been listening to the news all morning, and there has been a lot of talk about the fact that there is very little transparency in where our tax dollars are going, and that the bill is much higher then we are being led to believe.. some spoke of debt over 1 trillion dollars.
The big banks and others have been bailed out (we won't even talk about AIG, who had another lavish multiple hundreds of thousands of $$ party again just last week). The concept was, the banks get bailed out and they, in turn, start lending out (extending credit) to help the taxpayers who bailed them out. Well guess that isn't happening.. and things continue to get worse as more jobs are being lost. DHL is closing up shop in the U.S. and thousands of jobs are being lost. So just when will this 'trickle down' effect kick in?
On a positive note, Citibank is sending out notices to mortgage holders in an attempt to help them out with their homes. Bank of America and one other (sorry, didn't catch the name of the the third bank) are doing the same. And they are making sure that the people taking out the loans are not making payments that exceed 40% of their monthly salary. And that point was stressed in the news story. Does this mean that some mortgages were for more then 40% of a family's monthly income?  
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| Nov 11, 2008 @ 11:17 AM |
What happened to the Bail out trickle down effect? |
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Gallows_Humor
Posts: 13,662
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in some cases..the teaser rates lowered the payment to where it was not..... at the time those rates were in effect...
but the current rates mean that they will be above it...
this is an end run by the banks..to not have to keep bad paper on their books... but still being able to refinancing the good paper...
it's more like skimming off the cream and giving the rest of the batch to the government ...letting them figure out just what to do..
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| Nov 11, 2008 @ 11:24 AM |
What happened to the Bail out trickle down effect?
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Gallows_Humor
Posts: 13,662
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btw...I am sorry for the job loss... but glad to see this global company stop taking profits away from us companies.....
DHL Express, which has lost more than US$6 billion since 2003 when it began to aggressively compete with UPS and FedEx in the US, will have shed more than 13,000 jobs this year.
DHL was foundedin 1969 by three entrepreneurs in San Francisco.
Today, its global headquarters is in Germany, after an acquisition by Deutsche Post in 2002.
.......
Minutes after DHL announced Monday it was ceding the U.S. express mail market, UPS’s sales force — more than 3,000 strong — swung into action.
1-800-PICK UPS — the call center for Sandy Springs-based UPS, the largest U.S. air and ground carrier — lit up. And the “Welcome Center for DHL customers” on UPS’s Web site started popping
DHL has spent more than $10 billion since 2003 trying to build a U.S. air and ground network and customer base.
MARKET SHARE
U.S. market share for express mail and ground parcels, for the third quarter 2008
• UPS: 52 percent
• FedEx: 31.5 percent
• U.S. Postal Service: 11.7 percent
• DHL: 4.8 percent
Source: SJ Consulting Group
“We saw quite a boost this morning in the new account area,” Alan Gershenhorn, senior vice president of worldwide sales and marketing, said Monday. “We’ve been well-prepared for this. Just now we’ve kicked our sales efforts into a higher gear.”
UPS wants “more than its fair share” of DHL’s customers, said Gershenhorn.
Customers and industry insiders have watched DHL’s network deteriorate for months. UPS’s 60,000 drivers have doubled their sales leads in the last few weeks, and direct e-mail and snail mail campaigns are under way to recruit clients, he said.
The market opportunity — about 1.1 million shipments a day — is ripe for the taking.
UPS’s near-term goal is to turn DHL’s customers toward Big Brown —and away from No. 2 FedEx, based in Memphis, or the No. 3 U.S. Postal Service. DHL had been a distant No. 4, controlling only about 5 percent of the U.S. express and ground market, according to SJ Consulting Group.
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| Nov 11, 2008 @ 11:38 AM |
What happened to the Bail out trickle down effect? |
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blondhunger
Posts: 438
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There will never be transparency where tax dollars are concerned as income tax was illegally ratified by a trumped up 16th amendment during Wilson's administration when the Revenue Department was first formed. Up until then taxes had only assessed to the people during war time and then rescinded.
The Federal Reserve, our so-called Central Bank, is not at all what it seems. It is a privatized banking cartel of wealthy family owners such as the Rothchilds, the Rockefellers, and others who are the actual recipients of your income tax dollars through offshore accounts. In come tax does not in fact pay for any government services. Your worthless treasury notes are instruments of debt that income tax pays the proposed interest on.
There is nothing patriotic about paying higher taxes because they are unconstitutional and do not repay any US debt. There will never be transparency on the biggest lie ever covered up in US history. The courts, our elected officials, and the executive branch all know it and will keep the truth from you.
Don't believe me. Two IRS agents have already gone over the wall Joe Banister being the first the second is a black woman, former Treasury Agent, who gives an informative talk about how there is no regulation requiring you to pay tax. Look it up on You Tube Yet they tax you anyway. Joe Banister had a number of articles written about him in Time and some other magazines. Of course the authorities, whoever they are, will try and discredit him. This man comes from a family of law enforcement officers who all stand behind their sibling.
Truth is you're getting screwed, your elections are fixed, and the media is owned by multinational corporations who have hidden agendas that slant the reality you are fed daily on the radio, TV, internet, and newspapers. Anyone who dares to report the news as it really is will be labeled extremists, subversives, or unreliable sources.
Wake up America your founding forefathers would puke!   
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| Nov 11, 2008 @ 11:43 AM |
What happened to the Bail out trickle down effect?
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Gallows_Humor
Posts: 13,662
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interesting reading... it answers a lot of questions...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AigAerospace AIG Tower in Hong KongAIG owns International Lease Finance Corporation (ILFC) , the world's largest aircraft leasing company, with hundreds of aircraft including the full range of Boeing and Airbus jetliners, as well as the McDonnell Douglas MD-11 and MD-80 Series. Total assets under lease are $55 billion as of June 30, 2008. Estimates of its value range from $5 billion to $14 billion based on a comparison with rivals Ports As of March 16, 2007, AIG Investments, a division of AIG, completed the purchase of 100% of the stock of P&O Ports North America from Dubai-based Dubai Ports World. At the time, the estimated price was $700m, though AIG did not disclose the exact figure because the number was too low to be deemed significant to the company's asset base.[58] On July 2, 2007, Marine Terminals Corporation became part of the AIG Global Investment Group through its acquisition by AIG Highstar Capital. MTC provides the shipping community with a comprehensive network of stevedoring, terminal operating and related cargo handling services. Terms were not disclosed.[59] Board of directors Ed Liddy – Chairman of the Board of Directors and Chief Executive Officer (American International Group) Stephen F. Bollenback – Former Co-Chairman and CEO, Hilton Hotels Corporation Martin S. Feldstein – Professor of Economics, Harvard University George L. Miles – President and Chief Executive Officer, WQED Multimedia Morris W. Offit – Chairman, Offit Capital Advisors LLC Michael H. Sutton – Consultant Fred H. Langhammer – Chairman, Global Affairs, and former CEO of The Estee Lauder Companies, Inc. Virginia M. Rometty – Senior Vice President, Global Business Services, IBM Corporation James F. Orr, III – Chairman of the Board of Trustees, The Rockefeller Foundation Edmund S.W. Tse – Senior Vice Chairman, Life Insurance, American International Group Suzanne Nora Johnson –
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| Nov 11, 2008 @ 11:49 AM |
What happened to the Bail out trickle down effect? |
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 18,615
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btw...I am sorry for the job loss... but glad to see this global company stop taking profits away from us companies.....
Well, mixed emotions here too. A good part of the 700 of the jobs lost here in AZ are those of friends of mine, oh, and mine too, although it's met with mixed emotion since it's a great retirement bonus.
I'm a little confused about how you see Deutsche Post as taking pofits away from US companies though. It pays corporate taxes on profits made here, just as Fedex and UPS have to pay taxes in countries where they have a presence. While it slashed 9500 jobs of US workers, those jobs haven't all disappeared, but have been offshored, with people in Prague and Kuala Lumpur working on shifts to cover the US time zones. The city of Wilmington, Ohio will be pretty much devastated as the DHL hub was located there - Deutsche Post is considering donating the building to the city to use as it sees fit, to try to make up the huge job loss there. The DPWN stock is sold on the Frankfurt market, but it's certainly available to US citizens...although it's a lot cheaper than Fedex or UPS.
Actually I've been proud to work with Deutsche Post for the past 8 years (my original company was acquired by them in 2000). Every disaster around the globe has been responded to quickly and generously, with both people and money. When Katrina hit, employees around the world raised some pretty large sums of money, which DPWN matched. I'm only sorry they couldn't gain enough market share in the USA to maintain the kind of presence here that they wanted. This was about the domestic share of the market (i.e. shipments beginning and ending within the USA, where they've posted huge losses, not profits); they will still hold the lion's share of the international market, but a smaller share of that will be retained in the USA due to the job loss here.
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| Nov 11, 2008 @ 11:54 AM |
What happened to the Bail out trickle down effect?
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 18,615
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There is nothing patriotic about paying higher taxes because they are unconstitutional and do not repay any US debt.
Question - if not our taxes, what's paying for our military, our wars, etc.,?
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| Nov 11, 2008 @ 12:16 PM |
What happened to the Bail out trickle down effect? |
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Gallows_Humor
Posts: 13,662
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sorry to hear this affects you personally heaven....really I am... 
and I know that in posting losses..there were no profits..and so ??? there probably was no taxes paid???
(I also admit this area is out of my league... )
wishing you well.... 
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| Nov 11, 2008 @ 12:28 PM |
What happened to the Bail out trickle down effect?
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 18,615
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No problem for me - the severance package is really good, and some jobs are being retained in the area (including my closest friends out here). Net effect for me is a 9 1/2 month paid leave to kick off my retirement, which I'd been deferring in the expectation that this would be happening. It's no surprise to most of us as it's been obvious that DHL couldn't break into the USA market, even though it's the largest worldwide.
As for the overall bailout - I heard they're restructuring the later AIG loans - hope it will help, though the Fed is still shrouded in mystery as to what it does, or why.
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| Nov 11, 2008 @ 12:40 PM |
What happened to the Bail out trickle down effect? |
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Haban3ro
Posts: 1,197
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As for the trickle-down effect, It's been overtaken by circumstances.
The purpose of the bailout was to restore confidence in the financial markets, and to get banks lending again. Others have spoken to the bank lending issue, so I won't go into it.
Do you suppose that the prospect of higher rates for capital gains taxes had anything to do with it? If you're going to be taxed more on top of your market loss, why not sell now and put your money into something safer? Like Ugandan coffee futures.
This renewed pressure to sell and secure what little money you have left has been driving the markets further down since the election, along with fears of inflation.
We didn't just have 2 trillion dollars sitting in a shoebox somewhere. It will have to be printed and circulated, then recovered by taxation, or we'll have inflation that will make the 22% prime interest rate of the Carter years look like a darn good bargain.
I don't know how you make people feel more confident that their taxes won't go up while their savings go down. Maybe we need a good speech.
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| Nov 11, 2008 @ 12:42 PM |
What happened to the Bail out trickle down effect?
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 18,615
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Or do what's been done for the last 8 years...borrow from China? 
Dems - tax and spend
Neocons - borrow and spend
I still think borrowing's worse.
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| Nov 11, 2008 @ 12:50 PM |
What happened to the Bail out trickle down effect? |
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Gallows_Humor
Posts: 13,662
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don't know how you make people feel more confident that their taxes won't go up while their savings go down.
a small point.. but savings principle never goes down.. but net worth does...
if your goal was an increase in short term net worth gains..
and you gambled in the risk laden stock market... it is not Obama's fault..
saying this...if the world economy does not collaspe into chaos.. your long term net worth will improve in time..
the purpose of the bail out was to keep the world economy afloat...allowing youe personal financial net worth to remain intact..
if AIG closes it's doors.. who will the new players ( owners of the assets..) be??
right now because of the bail out...it is the US government...
without the bail out...???who???...
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| Nov 11, 2008 @ 1:01 PM |
What happened to the Bail out trickle down effect?
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blondhunger
Posts: 438
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Heaven asked if our income taxes don't pay for our troops overseas then what appropriation does?
Answer- Gas Tax, Sin Tax, intrastate transportation tax, tariffs, phone communications tax, sales tax, port of entry tax, corporate taxes, utility taxes, road and bridge taxes, hotel taxes, food and beverage taxes, real estate sales tax, auto sales tax new and used, the list goes on and on. Heaven, and the deeper you get the less you will like it. Are we really? Or is it just an illusion with a different label?
Well, at least no one is kicking our doors in in the middle of the night like the ATF or any other jackbooted goose stepping enforcers, or are they?
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| Nov 11, 2008 @ 1:16 PM |
What happened to the Bail out trickle down effect? |
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Loreli
Posts: 25,408
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2 major companies here just had layoffs this week, Rockwell International and Yellowbook USA.
During the flood, several banks were destroyed and have not reopened.
It's gonna take some time to see constant improvement....Wall Street has had some up days.
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| Nov 11, 2008 @ 1:50 PM |
What happened to the Bail out trickle down effect?
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delsoldamien
Posts: 135
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I heard that the trickle down money from the bail outs took a left and is going into the pockets of politicians that lobbyists bought off for the first bail out payment?? Gotta pay for the next 4 years of coverage I guess.. 
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| Nov 11, 2008 @ 2:03 PM |
What happened to the Bail out trickle down effect? |
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 18,615
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If AIG goes out, will all its subsidiaries go too? It has a bunch of tentacles, not just insurance. I read that the latest loan is being restructured, with more conditions, not just the blank check they were given originally by the Fed. Remember too, that this isn't part of the bailout, which was legislated by congress - his was totally aside from that, and engineered entirely by the Fed, with no input, oversight or transparency to anyone else.
As far as campaign contributions go, here are some facts:
The link to Propublic, the source
First, we checked campaign contributions that AIG employees had made following the bailout. We found that the majority went to Barack Obama. The amount was relatively small – a total of just under $19,000 up till October 15, which is the most recent data available.
Employees gave a paltry $250 to McCain’s campaign, which could be a sign of anything from their political affiliation to their beliefs about who is likely to win the election. (There’s no law against public employees giving political contributions, according to Fred Wertheimer of pro-democracy group Democracy 21.)
Next, we poked around to see whom their lobbyists (now former lobbyists) had been giving to.
The most recent data for that only gets us to the end of September, but we couldn’t find donations made after the bailout.
Interestingly, through 2007 and this year, AIG’s lobbyists heavily favored the Republicans over the Democrats. They gave $217,000 to Republicans, almost exactly $100,000 more than they gave to Democrats.
John McCain and his campaign were the top recipients, with almost $21,000.
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| Nov 11, 2008 @ 2:11 PM |
What happened to the Bail out trickle down effect?
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delsoldamien
Posts: 135
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Now check to see who bought all those pre-paid credit cards that Barack got for his campaign and maybe we can shed some light on this subject even better..and it is not alway trickled down in monetary form, sometimes it is loans, good deals on property and under prime loans...you can only scratch the surface in finding out how each hand was greased....on both sides that is.. 
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| Nov 11, 2008 @ 2:27 PM |
What happened to the Bail out trickle down effect? |
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Gallows_Humor
Posts: 13,662
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 ,,,,,,,, 
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| Nov 11, 2008 @ 5:23 PM |
What happened to the Bail out trickle down effect?
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 18,615
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Just wondering here...if the Fed is privately owned, and they now own a stake in AIG, and quite a large one at that, do we as US citizens, own any part of those resources? AIG owns more planes than most airlines, including pieces of China Airlines and the Dubai port conglomerate, as well as billions of dollars worth of IT resources in India (where most of our offshored IT jobs have gone). Oh, and btw, they were lobbying for nuclear capability for India prior to the bailout, when they were told to quit their bytchin.
[Edited on 11/11/2008 5:27 PM]
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| Nov 11, 2008 @ 5:23 PM |
What happened to the Bail out trickle down effect? |
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 18,615
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Sorry, guess I stammered... 
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