| Nov 12, 2008 @ 11:43 AM |
IOUSA - How did I not see this?
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 18,620
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IOUSA - 30 minute horror story
Eeek...don't look now, the monster's here...
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| Nov 12, 2008 @ 12:37 PM |
IOUSA - How did I not see this? |
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KatiefromStafford
Posts: 2,750
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Holy cow. Now what? As for why we did not see this, no one has bothered to tell us. Of course, the other side of that is, why weren't we watching for ourselves. But the question is what should we have been watching, and how could we have known. We trusted our government, I guess this is a lesson in why trusting the government is a bad idea. 
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| Nov 12, 2008 @ 12:47 PM |
IOUSA - How did I not see this?
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 18,620
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Well, that's only part of it, although a large one. What I meant was how did I not see this video before, given my own strong feelings on the subject. It puts into clear focus what I've been thinking for some time, including how our national security is tied far more into our economy than into our military, and the burden that our children will carry for our lack of just plain common sense. I am still hoping that Obama fails to make good on his promise to cut taxes for anyone - we really can't afford it. Here's a review by Roger Ebert on the film, that I think is a pretty good summary:
.O.U.S.A.
Cast & CreditsFeaturing David M. Walker, Robert Bixby, Paul Volker, Ron Paul, Warren Buffett, Paul O'Neill and others.
By Roger Ebert
A letter to our grandchildren, Raven, Emil and Taylor: I see you growing up into such beautiful people, and I wish all good things to you as you make the leap into adulthood. But I have just seen a documentary titled "I.O.U.S.A." that snapped into sharp focus why your lives may not be as pleasant as ours have been. Chaz and I had the blessing of growing up in an optimistic, bountiful America. We never fully realized that we were paying for many of our comforts with your money.
Let me explain. There is something called the "national debt." In the movie's interviews with ordinary people, it has a hard time finding anyone who knows exactly what that is. Well, I've never exactly known, either. I thought I knew, but it never came up in conversation, and it became a meaningless abstraction, even though in 2009, the debt will pass $9 trillion. You might think of those as dollars our nation has spent without having them.
What will this mean to you? It will mean you will live in a country no longer able to pay for many of the services and guarantees we take for granted. In 40 years, when you are still less than my age, it looks like the government will only be able to pay for three things: Interest on the national debt, "some" Social Security and "some" Medicare. It will not be able to afford any of the other functions it now performs.
How did we get into this situation? With a federal government that has been throwing bad money after good. Of all the presidents in the last century, the only one who was able to achieve a balanced budget and produce a surplus was Bill Clinton. He did that by bravely raising taxes and cutting spending. Our current president, George W. Bush, is now finishing up eight years of throwing around money like a drunken sailor. His fellow conservatives, like Rush Limbaugh, like to talk about "tax and spend Democrats." But they seem to be "don't tax and spend even more Republicans."
Not that this film takes sides. It is non-partisan and includes many Republicans who agree with its argument that the country is headed for disaster within the lifetimes of many now living. It centers on David M. Walker, until recently the U.S. comptroller general, and Robert Bixby, the head of the nonpartisan Concord Coalition, who have been on a national "Fiscal Wake-Up" tour that will last until the November elections. They are trying to sound the alarm, but they speak to half-empty town halls and captive Rotarians and get pushed off the local news by a story of a man who swallowed a diamond.
I don't really believe this review will inspire enormous numbers of people to go see the film. But if they do, they'll find it accomplishes an amazing thing. It explains the national debt, the foreign trade deficit, the decrease in personal savings, how the prime interest rate works, and the weakness of our leaders. No, not only George W. Bush, but politicians of both parties, who know if they vote against tax cuts, they will be lambasted by their opponents and could lose their jobs. In the film, we see President Bush being asked about the debt and replying: "Ask the economists. I think I only got a B-minus in economics." Then he gives that little chuckle. "But I got an A-plus in cutting taxes."
Yes, he cut taxes while our national spending mushroomed. What we have to do is bite the bullet and pay higher taxes while spending less. The war in Iraq is a much sexier issue. But no matter what happens in Iraq, the real crisis we face is the debt. The movie includes testimony by former Fed chairman Paul Volker, former Treasury Department secretary Paul O'Neill, billionaire Warren Buffett, congressman Ron Paul and others on both sides of the fence who all agree: Don't buy what you can't pay for.
Here's an interesting statistic. I remember when "Made in China" meant cheap and shabby merchandise. No longer. In the ranking of the trade imbalance among all the world's nations, China is first with the highest surplus, and the United States is last with the largest deficit. The Chinese now hold a huge chunk of our debt. If they ever call in the loan, it would destroy our economy. In the presidential debate earlier in the year, Ron Paul was a lonely voice talking about the debt; the others on both sides paid lip service to the problem and moved on.
(continued below)
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| Nov 12, 2008 @ 12:50 PM |
IOUSA - How did I not see this? |
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Nightowl001
Posts: 7,509
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Some of us saw it coming, Katie. The problem was we didn't open enough eyes, and we let them instill Shrub in office. Our only hope now is that Obama can inspire us to unite to fight this Larger threat, and realize that what is best for us in the long term is not what we want in the short term. I'm a little low on hope, though, because he is still talking about tax relief for anyone at all (although to be sure, I think McCain would have tried to institute policies that would have created far higher deficits than Obama's will). I can say that we will NOT see the deficit spending decrease in the next few years. Not without eliminating half of government and creating a shattering depression.
(edited to correct a typo)
[Edited on 11/12/2008 1:05 PM]
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| Nov 12, 2008 @ 12:50 PM |
IOUSA - How did I not see this?
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 18,620
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The bottom line:
So here's the bottom line, kids. The United States is probably going to go broke during your lifetimes. Actually, it's already broke, but getting deeper into debt allows it to keep running on thin air, like the Road Runner. My advice? Learn Chinese. Start savings accounts. Don't buy what you can't afford. Any politician who tries to win votes by promising to cut taxes is digging our country's grave.
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| Nov 12, 2008 @ 1:05 PM |
IOUSA - How did I not see this? |
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Nightowl001
Posts: 7,509
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Any politician who tries to win votes by promising to cut taxes is digging our country's grave. That bears repeating! 
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| Nov 12, 2008 @ 1:10 PM |
IOUSA - How did I not see this?
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KatiefromStafford
Posts: 2,750
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so buying bonds is helping to pay down the national debt? unless i missunderstood that part?
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| Nov 12, 2008 @ 1:16 PM |
IOUSA - How did I not see this? |
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 18,620
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Yep, you're essentially loaning money to Uncle Sam when you buy government bonds. You're also helping to get the savings deficit back in line.
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| Nov 12, 2008 @ 1:31 PM |
IOUSA - How did I not see this?
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KatiefromStafford
Posts: 2,750
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well I can do that.. that is easy!
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| Nov 12, 2008 @ 1:31 PM |
IOUSA - How did I not see this? |
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sealacamp
Posts: 3,681
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The problem was we didn't open enough eyes, and we let them instill Shrub in office.
Really? Then who is it that started this housing bubble? What started the whole thing? Who accelerated it? Who reaped huge rewards from it? How did that cause the majority of the crisis we find ourselves in now? Was that Mr. Bush? Or are you just making your usual false accusations again while ignoring the facts?
Who Caused The Housing Bubble?
S
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| Nov 12, 2008 @ 1:53 PM |
IOUSA - How did I not see this?
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Nightowl001
Posts: 7,509
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No matter how many times that video is posted doesn't make it accurate. BOTH parties were responsible for the housing bubble. It is a flat out LIE to keep claiming that any legislation was signed that "forced" banks to make unqualified loans.
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| Nov 12, 2008 @ 2:07 PM |
IOUSA - How did I not see this? |
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 18,620
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Then who is it that started this housing bubble?
Who cares? Did you watch the video? The point is, this is where we are now - not 10 trillion dollars in debt, but more like 53 trillion if you actually do the math on what's owed to Social Security. That's a debt that's about to be called in - it's been a surplus since its inception, but now that baby boomers are retiring, it will be another deficit. We all know this, but we've all, including our government, chosen to ignore it.
We can shout out about bailouts that are accomplishing zip to control the problem, we can buy bonds, we can pay down our personal debt and insist that the government do the same. What we can't do is waste time and energy in arguing about which party's fault it is. If we don't recognize that we're in the war of our lives, we don't deserve to survive.
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| Nov 12, 2008 @ 2:14 PM |
IOUSA - How did I not see this?
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SensualGemini
Posts: 6,923
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Katie: Holy cow. Now what? As for why we did not see this, no one has bothered to tell us.
...Oh, we have been telling, repeatedly, but nobody is listening.
...Most are split with this two party BS and while pointing their finger at the only thing they think they have any control over, the president, they totally ignore what Congress has been doing, what the Federal Reserve is comprised of, or anything beyond the shallow, nonsensical promises being made for votes.
============
Heaven: I am still hoping that Obama fails to make good on his promise to cut taxes for anyone - we really can't afford it.
...Sis, we cannot afford our government and if we should increase taxes, like the past 100 years or so, government will just become larger to consume them.
...Providing for adequate revenue is an arbitrary number, as thus far, nothing has been enough.
...I do believe that we follow closely in Britain's politics, albeit about 30 years behind and with that, we will see a third political party emerge as our economy collapses... and collapse is happening as I type this.
...Once again, the President is not Congress, not the entity to be held accountable.
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Knight: Some of us saw it coming, Katie. The problem was we didn't open enough eyes, and we let them instill Shrub in office. Our only hope now is that Obama can inspire us to unite to fight this Larger threat, and realize that what is best for us in the long term is not what we want in the short term.
...That is ludicrous to blame Bush, or any president for the failures of Congress.
...Listen to the video again, at about 26 minutes, where it concerns Bush.
...We have been through his before and your complaint is the Bush tax cuts and otherwise rebates for all, which Congress also approved.
...Your claim that the Bush tax cuts are for the wealthy and with that, since the top 50% pay 97% of the taxes, in any reasonable mind, it is concluded the bottom 50% are not remotely doing their part, but reaping all of the benefits. 
...Personally, screw your increased taxes, as I need mine to take care of those I am foremost responsible for, including the old; since I cannot depend on the government to return over 50 years of Social Security, let alone the bottom 50% helping with anything.
...The Bush tax cuts, rebates and war, if removed, would only solve about 10% of today's issues. Taxes would have to be doubled for everyone, across the board, to even break even with today's massive debt and do realize, if interest should climb as it did after Carter, it would take a 400% increase in all taxes, across the board, for everyone, to even maintain.
...The answer is to create industry that creates employment, that pays into the present tax structure as it is... or less, as we subsequently have to reduce government; over 30 cents of every tax dollar goes to support our government, not the people.
Knight: I can say that we will NOT see the deficit spending decrease in the next few years. Not without eliminating half of government and creating a shattering depression.
...We can partially agree, as I believe it will be a "shattering depression" that eliminates half of government, as government is not going to voluntarily reduce itself.
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| Nov 12, 2008 @ 2:28 PM |
IOUSA - How did I not see this? |
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 18,620
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Sis, we cannot afford our government and if we should increase taxes, like the past 100 years or so, government will just become larger to consume them.
Okay bro, then what's the plan? No matter how much we cut spending, we're so far in the hole that it can't possibly be enough. Third party, fine. That's still not going to get us on track for what needs to be done. I've weighed in on this one before, for all the good it does - Ron Paul was about as close to my own beliefs as anyone who's ever run...I don't care what party anybody is, I just want them to stop and look some facts in the face and stop telling us good little children how everything's gonna be all right baby, the deficit doesn't really matter, while we sell our own kids' birthright to the highest bidder to satisfy the ambitions of those in power. And I don't care which party we're talking about - I'd be up for adding a 'vote of no confidence' to unseat an administration to our Constitution if this imbecility continues, no matter who's in office.
Just cutting spending won't be enough, nor will increasing taxes be enough, but cutting taxes? I think it's time to stop the insanity. It's time to do what any good householder does when the going gets tough - pull in our belts and get to work on finding what can be fixed and going at it.
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| Nov 12, 2008 @ 2:57 PM |
IOUSA - How did I not see this?
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Nightowl001
Posts: 7,509
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bottom 50% are not remotely doing their part, but reaping all of the benefits. I'm sorry, but I can't let this one stand. Every two wage-earning households earning the median income are paying more into social security than household in the top 1% of the income scale. Two households making the median income, whichever figures you accept as accurate, are paying social security taxes on roughly $100,000 in income. That's $6200 at 6.2% taxation. In 2007, the maximum individual Social Security withholding was $6045, even if your income was $1 million. I'M tired of the BS that "the bottom half pay no taxes."
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| Nov 12, 2008 @ 3:01 PM |
IOUSA - How did I not see this? |
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SensualGemini
Posts: 6,923
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Heaven: Who cares? Did you watch the video? The point is, this is where we are now - not 10 trillion dollars in debt, but more like 53 trillion if you actually do the math on what's owed to Social Security. That's a debt that's about to be called in - it's been a surplus since its inception, but now that baby boomers are retiring, it will be another deficit. We all know this, but we've all, including our government, chosen to ignore it.
...Sis, I have been posting this for a long time, to deaf ears, whereas I presumed Social Security IOU's were about $30 Trillion, with the posted National Debt at about $10 Trillion, making public debt around $40 Trillion, or more.
...There was claim last year, that the total value of the US, right down to the cups in our cabinets, was worth about $27 Trillion, making the US beyond bankrupt.
...Personally, I am concerned about the old folks, my parents, etc. I have not ignored the happenings, nor am I willing to pay more into a worthless tax consuming, self serving government of leeches, as I have my own responsibilities to take care of, to provide for, as this economy continues to collapse.
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...And without a doubt, all of this started long ago, under the presidency of Woodrow Wilson (D) with the Federal Reserve and expansion of imposed democracy worldwide, followed by FDR (D) and his "New Deals," which eliminated the gold standard, created welfare and imposed a slave tax called Social Security.
...Maybe they were good ideas at the time, that were simply abused. 
...Coolidge (R) and even Reagan made the attempt to reduce government and we see how well that went.
...Meantime, the "scholars" make claim that Wilson and FDR were the best presidents, while Coolidge was worthless. But, we all know that scholars are a liberal group and you can only give away so much of the "farm," before there is nothing left to give... and everyone starves.
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| Nov 12, 2008 @ 3:40 PM |
IOUSA - How did I not see this?
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sealacamp
Posts: 3,681
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No matter how many times that video is posted doesn't make it accurate.
No matter how many times you refute it that doesn't make it inaccurate. Please provide the evidence. Republicans are guilty of being too darn compliant to insanity and letting liberals just do what ever they like. Not to mention that Republicans tried to reign in the insanity and were pushed aside by Democrats. That is a fact. That video is filled with facts that you apparently refuse to accept. This destruction rests on the shoulders of Democrats and now those in power want to continue to do what has gotten everyone in this mess in the first place. Obama, Pelosi, and Reid all stated last week that they want to make sure that loans to people that really can't afford to pay them back will keep getting them for homes. What a bunch of idiots! They want to keep doing the very things that have put us in a jam. Now that is real smart. And people like you want to ignore it and say it isn't real and just allow them to keep running wild. Real smart NOT!
I'M tired of the BS that "the bottom half pay no taxes."
Dude you don't have to "let it stand" the facts speak for themselves and you can't change them. All you can do is to continue to misrepresent and distort them.
Total Returns 134,372,678
Paying Returns 90,593,079
Non-paying Returns 43,779,599
Tax Figures
67% of the people that filed a return pay taxes at all. 96% of those pay the bulk of the taxes. This is easily clarified, unless you just want to bury your head in the sand and ignore the facts.
33% of those that filed paid nothing. Not quite 50% but a substantial amount. How many people did not file taxes at all? Your point is baloney nightie.
S
[Edited on 11/12/2008 4:21 PM]
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| Nov 12, 2008 @ 3:44 PM |
IOUSA - How did I not see this? |
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Haban3ro
Posts: 1,197
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Ok, so how do we get out of the mess?
If a household faces a debt burden that threates its security, they can decide to live within their means, reduce unnecessary expenditures, and set whatever they can aside from their income stream to pay down the debt. Maybe someone gets a second or third job, or they sell assets to raise cash.
Can we really do that as a nation?
Before we run out to get another job (raise taxes) maybe we should look at what we can reduce, and what's owing. We've got both a fire in the attic and a flood in the basement, we should figure out which problem to tackle first.
Social Security is paid out of current receipts from SS taxes. Any surplus is rapidly dwindling, and it will require help from the general fund in 15-20 years. Let's start with removing the cap on SS taxes at a $96,000, and keep this afloat a while longer. -- This is a flood, leaking pipes.
Treasury bill obligations are a huge recurring cost, but the interest rate on T-bills is much less than inflation at this point, yet money continues to come in; security rather than gain is driving investors. So maybe we can re-fi some of the old T-bills (i.e., sell enough new ones at the low rate to pay off the old higher-rate ones) --Another flood, but this is more like a busted waterheater.
Military obligations have grown hugely, but may be able to be reduced. Iraq will cost less, but one has to hold out reserves for potential problems that may heat up. (Iran, Russia, Venezuela?) Any of these 3 will dance with glee at a change to humiliate us publicly and get away with it. However, military procurement can be slowed, and weapons systems mothballed if need be. Still, if the security is not present, then investors will take their money somewhere else, and the T-bill flood problem becomes a fire. -- A fire in the drapes, but maybe the sprinklers can handle it.
Special Ops to remove bothersome foreign leaders becomes a more cost-effective option.
Domestic spending: this is the fire, I think.
1) No more bailouts, and the bailout money already allocated goes to cover mortgage problems, and not American Express or insurers. They can sell assets to get their houses in order, or the Bankruptcy courts are open to them. Let another energetic enterprise with money to spend buy these assets and make them work.
2) Freeze spending at current levels, and cut funding by 10-20% to any program that doesn't put lives at risk. (Remember the Circumcision Principle: you can take 10% off the top of ANYTHING without adversely affecting functionality.) No more ethanol or agriculture subsidies, Archer Daniels Midlands is big enough already.
3) Infrastructure projects get prioritized to maximize new jobs and return on investment. If there is a current work-around, use it until we can afford to work on an alternative. (i.e., No funding for high-speed trains to Las Vegas. People can fly or drive there if they want to go.) Otherwise, WAIT until we're flush again.
4) Social initiatives have to wait. If we're all eating rice and beans, we can't afford to go to the opera, or see the latest awareness-raising performance artist cover herself in Hershey's syrup. ( unless the audience gets to lick it off...  )
5) If it can't get done unless government does it, then it's because it's not worth enough to the public to fund it. Goodbye PBS, hello YouTube. Besides, PBS can sell licensing rights to Elmo and Dora and Diego and Barney to keep itself going.
6) Public Safety & environmental dangers: If the risk factor for death for people is less than one in 1,000,000, then stick a warning label on it and put a 5 year moratorium on product liability suits for that product. We can clean it up later, and let Darwinism take its course.
7) And no more funding for "public advocacy groups" or "community outreach" or "voter registration" groups. There can't be a single person left in this country who isn't registerd to vote after the last election. If you have a problem, e-mail your congressman; let 'em earn their pay.
8) Healthcare? Increase eligibility for private plans, allow more groups to be created for group-rate eligibility, and remove the "pre-existing condition" issue. (How about one for "People registered by Acorn in Ohio"? That gets you a large number of enrollees and a decent spread of risk. Or "Sarah Palin in 2012". I've never understood why political parties didn't negotiate for group rates for their members, just like AARP does.) The actuaries can figure out the new rates.
Oh, one more thing...
9) A moratorium on State and House of Representatives and Presidential salaries until the crisis is over. They know enough rich people who would be happy to provide for their needs. I never understood why someone would spend millions of dollars to get elected to a job that only pays $250,000 a year.
10) While we're at it, let's lose the public financing for political campaigns. Jon McCain lived for this, and it killed his campaign in the end. We have no proof that politicians are any less corrupt today than they were during the Nixon Administration, when all of this campaign reform stuff started.
"Free Beer!" Works for me!
Once we've cut things to the bone, then we can set about raising taxes.
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| Nov 12, 2008 @ 3:50 PM |
IOUSA - How did I not see this?
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SensualGemini
Posts: 6,923
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Heaven: Okay bro, then what's the plan? No matter how much we cut spending, we're so far in the hole that it can't possibly be enough.
...It seems to be rather simple, in that if we do not increase employment, which includes everyone that is capable, if we do not dramatically decrease government, then no amount of taxes on those that remain productive, will suffice the growing consumption of a self serving populace that simply takes.
...What is going to eventually happen, is just like Germany... as this is unsustainable, beyond most people's sedentary comprehension and the free ride is almost over.
...The Federal Reserve will continue to print money out of thin air, devaluating every dollar that is already out there, until inflation is no longer controllable and it will require a wheelbarrow of Federal Reserve Notes called dollars, to buy a loaf of bread.
...I don't want to be the grim reaper, but you have posted the reality of it all and not you, nor I can change what is happening, as the momentum has been increasing for the past 90 years or so.
...Personally, I would suggest that anyone diversify their retirements into a potentially safe currency, or non-US stocks, such as possibly with your AIG, as well as tangible products with their cash. The biggest problem during the last Depression, was the ability to pay their imposed property taxes; thus losing homes and farms for just the back taxes imposed by the same government that has caused this mess.
Ron Paul was about as close to my own beliefs as anyone who's ever run...
...I agree, as well as you also realize, the money people pushed him to the side and gave us McCain, who did not seem to have a chance in hell, but still pulled a remarkable percentage of the popular vote and meantime, funded three times the resources to Obama, who will become the scapegoat.
===============
Knight: I'm sorry, but I can't let this one stand. Every two wage-earning households earning the median income are paying more into social security than household in the top 1% of the income scale. Two households making the median income, whichever figures you accept as accurate, are paying social security taxes on roughly $100,000 in income. That's $6200 at 6.2% taxation. In 2007, the maximum individual Social Security withholding was $6045, even if your income was $1 million. I'M tired of the BS that "the bottom half pay no taxes."
...First of all, a household that is making $100,000 annual, is not in the bottom 50%.
...So, maybe that is why you are growing "tired" in trying to prove your point, which starts out as being based on BS.
========
...Regardless, read who benefits from Social Security, as it was and is a retirement system, that otherwise, the bottom 50% would not have siht when they retired and be dependent upon the government, the taxpayer to support them.
...It is no different than someone paying into a 401K, an IRA, or other pension plan, except Social Security is imposed, mandatory and no choice for those that would otherwise have the ability to invest in something that would provide 10 times or more the return as our government does.
...In actuality, Social Security is matched by the employer and there is also Medicare paid, for a total of 15.3% for those actually working and paying into the system; not cash employment.
=========
...But, what you fail to acknowledge, is that same $100,000 annual household, pays an additional 28% Federal income tax and up to 10% State income tax, that the bottom 50% do not.
...Now, take an additional $38,000 per $100,000 income annual, which rises with more income to 35% Federal and the facts are already there... the top 50% pay 97% of all taxes, while the many of the bottom 50% receive more back from child credit and rebates, than they paid in.
...The top 50% are responsible for much of the commerce, that is all taxed, for paying their own health insurance, that is not a load on the taxpayer, for purchasing equipment and all entities to support a business, or just to get to work, that also produces more taxes, etc.
...The facts are what they are... the bottom 50% are not doing their part and the free ride is about over with; while taking many of the top 50% down with them, from our devalued currency and failed financial institutions.
...So, if it will make that socialistic mind feel any better, most of the populace will all be in the same boat... with nothing.
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| Nov 12, 2008 @ 4:09 PM |
IOUSA - How did I not see this? |
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SensualGemini
Posts: 6,923
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Haban: Social Security is paid out of current receipts from SS taxes. Any surplus is rapidly dwindling, and it will require help from the general fund in 15-20 years. Let's start with removing the cap on SS taxes at a $96,000, and keep this afloat a while longer. -- This is a flood, leaking pipes.
...Haban, maybe watch the movie, as there are $40 Trillion worth of IOU's to the Social Security fund that was stolen and put into the General Fund and already spent. And that money, paid in as a retirement fund, is not even drawing 1% interest.
...Why give more to an entity that has already mismanaged a system that would have sustained itself for the next thousand years? They will do the same with whatever they get... spend it and more.
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...It is not the working class household that is going broke, it is our government that is beyond broke, as well as the sub-prime financial institutions that loaned money to people that could not afford to make the payments. It is a lack of government oversight, that allowed these same financial entities to loan out $1,599 for every $1 they had on account.
...In essence, it is a forced socialism, by forcing the taxpayer to bail out those that do not pay taxes anyway, but received these loans.
...The fat lady is about to sing and not a damn thing can stop this, but hugely devalued dollars to pay of the past debt created with more valued dollars, as has been done for the past 40 years; but rapidly gaining momentum. This last bailout, which started with the Carter administration and deregulated banking, added $3 Trillion overnight, or 30% to the national debt and it is far from over with.
...I know it is harsh, but enough is enough... let our present financial system collapse as soon as possible, as being non-sustainable, it will anyway and we can start all over.
...It is sort of like knowing you are going to get a spanking and do you want it now, or next week?
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