| Nov 18, 2008 @ 10:41 AM |
Conservative Economics - The Surest Path To Racial Equality
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DiamondRain
Posts: 6,354
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I know this will be a controversial topic. I’m going to give my opinion here straight up as an opener. I hope others can express their opinions -- no matter how different from mine -- with equal candor without saying things that violate site rules for posting.
I am about as far from a racist that a person can get. The reason that many liberals seem to be compelled to think of me as a racist and occasionally can't contain themselves from saying it publicly is that I believe that conservative economic policies that reward hard work and excellence are the path to racial equality where as subscribers to liberal economics believe that handouts and perpetual dependency are the answer.
Although I think that liberal economic policies result in racism, I don't consider people who have these liberal economic agendas racists just for holding these particular beliefs, and certainly would not accuse anyone who holds these beliefs of being racist just for that reason. I just consider them misguided and ignorant in my opinion.
But unfortunately, many liberals don't have the same view towards my conservative views, nor tolerance for my beliefs, and insist on classifying me as, and even publicly calling me a racist. It’s part of the huge double standard when it comes to race.
So be it. I'm used to it, and it certainly has done nothing to change my opinion that conservative economics and a free market capitalist economy is the surest path to racial equality.
Your turn.
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| Nov 18, 2008 @ 10:43 AM |
Conservative Economics - The Surest Path To Racial Equality |
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Gallows_Humor
Posts: 13,662
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I personally don't think you are a racist.... 
is that what this thread .....is really about???
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| Nov 18, 2008 @ 10:47 AM |
Conservative Economics - The Surest Path To Racial Equality
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DiamondRain
Posts: 6,354
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It’s clear what it is about. It’s about which economic policies are more conducive to racial equality. Feel free to add your opinion.
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| Nov 18, 2008 @ 10:50 AM |
Conservative Economics - The Surest Path To Racial Equality |
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Gallows_Humor
Posts: 13,662
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neither one as they are both wanting to be the  master race....
edited to clarify...
racism is a part of being human... discrimination is the dark side of it...
it has to do with people...and who they are..and not economic plans..
if you wanted a truly non racist economic model.. you would have to embrace communism...
and as that system is a fantasy..... lots of luck...
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| Nov 18, 2008 @ 11:18 AM |
Conservative Economics - The Surest Path To Racial Equality
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copsmomof2
Posts: 293
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Diamond - I don't think you are a racist.
I'm not a liberal.
I do think the consevative movement leaves out the more unfortunate economically because they are more into making a big profit for themselves - not the workers that got them there.
I think we are responsible for our fellow citizens the rich and the poor. It just seems the poor get forgotten often times for the rich. I know the old "define rich" thing and to me "rich" is when you are greedy enough to take what you know you don't need in an effort to stay above those who struggle just to survive.
I am very consevative in some aspects but money isn't one of them. I have a good life because I worked for it but I also show compassion for the people who perhaps didn't make as good a choice as I did. I feel it's my responsibility to do that as a human. I'm not a bleeding heart - I'm realistic in knowing it won't get better if I do nothing and watch my fellow citizen fail for a lifetime.
I'm sorry if you felt I was calling you a racist - I live where the KKK is still alive and well - I know what racist is. You haven't blatently met that definition to me. You do think in color alot on the other thread but then color is a part of our world. Like it or not.
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| Nov 18, 2008 @ 11:28 AM |
Conservative Economics - The Surest Path To Racial Equality |
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lacyvsq
Posts: 6,163
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Thank you for raising a good topic.
I want to set out two problems with your premises:
Martin wrote a series recently on The invisible Hand where he discussed capitalism and market forces quite well (though I believe his 'solution' is misguided). He points out that allowing capitalism to operate freely without governing control results in commoditization of labor (people) and land There is no morality, and people become 'human resources'. That may promote equality, but it does not elevate the human spirit.
Which leads to the second problem I have with your discussion. Who wants equality? Wise parents are taught not to show their children 'equal' love, but rather to treasure each child for his/her special qualities.
I am in favor of individual freedom to determine my own value, but government must operate to protect me and others from harming life, property and person of others. Protection should not over-extend however into limiting opportunities, stealing my life and property in an effort to equalize. As we are not all alike physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, we should not be educated equally, fed. clothed and housed the same, cared for uniformly (retirement and welfare benefits). We should not have the same charity demands levied upon us. Only the same protections/liberties should be afforded to us and the same limitations -- that we do not harm the property or person of others. That is not a path to equality, but rather to freedom.
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| Nov 18, 2008 @ 2:18 PM |
Conservative Economics - The Surest Path To Racial Equality
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delsoldamien
Posts: 135
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Diamond, I believe that in order for liberal politics to grow and continue, racism and other devision must continue..Liberal politics thrives on inequality, without it there is no life to it. They are social engineers and believe that they have all the solutions for our problems..but when a problem goes away..they lose their voice..That is why they dumb down schools, make people dependant on them and force them to live in the urban areas..to maintain their power and control. Liberal economics believes that there is a limited amount of money that that everyone deserves a equal piece..what they don't realize or care about is that there is no limit to the amount of money and everyone can cut whatever size piece of pie they want..
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| Nov 18, 2008 @ 2:26 PM |
Conservative Economics - The Surest Path To Racial Equality |
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Gallows_Humor
Posts: 13,662
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Liberal economics believes that there is a limited amount of money that that everyone deserves a equal piece..what they don't realize or care about is that there is no limit to the amount of money and everyone can cut whatever size piece of pie they want..
the proof of this is....that the government here can just crank up the presses...
my next question is... why is basic health care so expensive?
and a parting thought ( to this post...) is...what happens if the world wakes up to the fact that money (us dollars) is only a way to keep score (for the one percenter's )
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| Nov 18, 2008 @ 3:35 PM |
Conservative Economics - The Surest Path To Racial Equality
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sealacamp
Posts: 3,681
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I do think the consevative movement leaves out the more unfortunate economically because they are more into making a big profit for themselves - not the workers that got them there.
I work for a living have always worked for a living and have spent my life in the trenches doing the work that most people in this world would consider a nightmare. What you are saying is dead wrong. Conservatism is about people picking themselves up by themselves. If that is what someone wants then they have a problem in my opinion. I have been homeless for two years and never asked for anything but work. Where as I see the people who refuse to do what is right begging left and right. I have been with them too and I can tell you my sympathy level for most of them is very low. I am still low on the food chain and may well be for the rest of my life. No one put me anywhere except God almighty. What you are saying is dead wrong and it makes you have a liberal point of view even though you deny being a liberal. Actions speak louder than words and government handouts are for losers. I would rather starve than ask for someone to bail me out. What a bogus pile of baloney!
S
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| Nov 18, 2008 @ 3:40 PM |
Conservative Economics - The Surest Path To Racial Equality |
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SweetNapaGuy
Posts: 8,501
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"Compassionate conservatism..."
Heh...
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| Nov 18, 2008 @ 3:54 PM |
Conservative Economics - The Surest Path To Racial Equality
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Nightowl001
Posts: 7,500
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Conservatism is about people picking themselves up by themselves...... No one put me anywhere except God almighty.......
my sympathy level for most of them is very low. .... Okay, so when you do good, it's your effort; when you fail, it's God's fault; and if someone else fails, it's their fault. Got it.
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| Nov 18, 2008 @ 4:38 PM |
Conservative Economics - The Surest Path To Racial Equality |
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 18,613
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the proof of this is....that the government here can just crank up the presses...
Make that the Fed (privately owned, not government) and I'll agree.
Equality? No such thing. We're NOT created equal - some are born with talents others can only dream of having, others are born with that proverbial silver spoon, and some are born into nightmarish lives in hellholes. Any time we manage to do well for ourselves, we can be damned sure that part of it's the result of talents we were born with, not anything we did to deserve them.
I'm nowhere near being one of the one percenters but managed to go from having to resort to Medicaid to a six figure income. Did I work hard? You betcha sweet bippy I did, but it probably wouldn't have happened if I hadn't bee born with an IQ in the 160's...and I'll bet that every last one of you who's done well for himself would rank right up there too. Not everybody's born all that intellgent, or all that blessed with any other kind of talent. I don't see anything wrong with enjoying the benefits of those accidents of birth, but just plain humility tells me that at least part of it is due to 'there but for the grace of God go I', and I try to share my blessings. I do it privately too, but I can't see anything wrong with trying to spread it around. I still like the line...money's like manure, spread it around and everything's coming up roses, pile it up in one place and it just stinks up the place. I think our stinkin' economy's at least partly due to just pure greed, and letting it pile up instead of spreading it...but that's JMHO as usual.
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| Nov 18, 2008 @ 5:20 PM |
Conservative Economics - The Surest Path To Racial Equality
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copsmomof2
Posts: 293
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I have been homeless for two years and never asked for anything but work.
So Sealacamp - I suppose that those homeless shelters that the liberals insist upon didn't help you out? How bout the free meals that those damn liberals encourage? I'm glad to hear that you were "homeless" and enjoyed it so much cause it made you a stronger person. I doubt very much if you would find a person that was truely homeless that would share your distain for the agencies that helped you make it thru a rough time in your life. How unthankful of you - I'm ashamed to admit that I have never voted Democratic until this election. Don't label me liberal or conservative - I'm the monster in the middle!! You should be one of the main contributors to agencies that help the homeless since you have first hand experience.
I have been very conservative in my politics but it's the far right that has sent me flying to the Dems this year. I'm not about political labels I'm about compassion - it's not a political issue - it's a human issue. Simple as that.
PS - just want to jingle your bell some more cause I was soooooo disgusted with the Repubs that I voted straight dem ticket.......... you just validated why I did.
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| Nov 18, 2008 @ 5:53 PM |
Conservative Economics - The Surest Path To Racial Equality |
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sealacamp
Posts: 3,681
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Okay, so when you do good, it's your effort; when you fail, it's God's fault;
Wrong! And you obviously do not have it. What you have is your twisting of my words to suite your understanding. Typical liberal baloney. God lifts up and God casts down. That does not negate a persons responsibility for their self. Perhaps you have a comprehension problem. Read it again and maybe you can understand it the second time around. It is hard to have sympathy for people you lived with who have proven they are purely lazy and don't want to do anything but beg. If you feel sorry for people like that then you go give them what ever you want. I prefer to give to people that show some willingness to accept personal responsibility for their actions and them move forward so they can rise above their circumstances on their own steam. The people you seem to favor will never rise to anything but more hand outs. That helps no one. But if you choose to wallow in your liberal insanity fine, enjoy.
So Sealacamp - I suppose that those homeless shelters that the liberals insist upon didn't help you out?
No they didn't because I slept in the woods and bathed, when I could, in ponds or rivers. As I said I never asked for anything from anyone. I certainly didn't take anything from any organization at all. I guess you have a comprehension problem too.
I think you all could increase your understanding by reading Selections From Walden. It might help you to understand the spirit that brought this country from a little dirt patch to a great nation. Taking handouts and seeking them had nothing to do with it, ever.
You should be one of the main contributors to agencies that help the homeless since you have first hand experience.
I can never enable someone to continue to live in a self destructive fashion. Maybe you should go live with the homeless for a year. Drop the labels and don't go home, don't bathe, don't know where your next job or meal will come from. Go find out for yourself. You have no clue. Don't preach to me about what I should be doing when it is clear you don't even know what you are doing. BTW thanks for confirming why I can't ever support a dem again, disgusting!
S
[Edited on 11/18/2008 5:59 PM]
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| Nov 18, 2008 @ 5:58 PM |
Conservative Economics - The Surest Path To Racial Equality
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copsmomof2
Posts: 293
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Now see Seal............... there is something we agree upon.
If you aren't willing to help yourself when you can then I'm not going to help you on a continious basis either. The support agencies altho are essential to people when they fall on hard times. Most govt programs are there to subsidize not "take care" of them for life. I do understand that some just live on "welfare" and refuse to work. I see lots of that. Altho programs are abused it doesn't negate the fact that they are needed. It's those they help that are the winners and in turn they should return the favor by helping someone else. Glad to see you do that.
I'm not getting into the God thing............ too deep for me.
[Edited on 11/18/2008 5:59 PM]
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| Nov 18, 2008 @ 5:59 PM |
Conservative Economics - The Surest Path To Racial Equality |
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delsoldamien
Posts: 135
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So Copsmom, and by the way, thank your son or daughter for their sevice in law enforcement, it is appreciated.. I do not understand your reason for moving so far to the left..if you voted for O-Clinton, you couldn't get any farther from the center...to the left!! I do not agree with all the things that repubs have done, and Iguess that goes for both sides, but if you are anywhere near the center, going that far to the left is pretty extreme the opposite direction from where you were..
GH, having basic health care is a falicy...the heath care, basic that the state of washington has, covers more then most plans that other business provide for their employees...but you have another hand in the basket...the government getting their share to manage it. As more people use their plans, the premiums go up, and of course the cost is passed on. A national health care plan would be the same, unless you limited the amount of money healthcare employees make, which unions would go ballistic over, the cost to manage the care would continue to go up. In order to keep the cost down, the government would have to ration the care, or reduce the care provided( a la Canada, Europe,and other national healthcare systems)...people think they have a hard time now making an appointment with their HMO's, wait till nationalized health care comes..
All of this is way off the subject of the surest path to racial equality, unless someone assumes that only minorities are the main or sole consumer of this service...Can there be compelete racial equality..we hope so, but can you remove all preferences from people?? How can you make someone like someone else??You can't, so some make it their business to profit from this and this along with what Heaven said, greed, leads to a corrupt system.
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| Nov 18, 2008 @ 6:06 PM |
Conservative Economics - The Surest Path To Racial Equality
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copsmomof2
Posts: 293
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Thanks Dels.............. I will thank both my sons, my DIL, and her sister. Having raised cops and living in a cops world (since I was a jail nurse for 2 years) I appreciate folks who follow the rules.
Voting the way I did I must admit was really difficult. Never in my life have I done that. I have done straight ticket for repubs a few times it did feel wierd going the other way but I felt it was needed and that's why we are a democracy. We get to choose what we do. We don't have to explain it to anyone and shouldn't have to defend it in forums. We shouldn't bash each other around for our convictions. It's what America is about. It seems to be social entertainment for some extreme folks. That's OK. I'm a swayer and I promise ya if the Dems don't have it together and do some positive things in the time given (4 years) I'll be right back in the red.
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| Nov 18, 2008 @ 6:08 PM |
Conservative Economics - The Surest Path To Racial Equality |
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sealacamp
Posts: 3,681
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Altho programs are abused it doesn't negate the fact that they are needed.
Actually we can agree on this. I never said these programs were not needed. What I said was that most people that rely on them don't want to do anything else and they won't do anything else but rely on them. Since that is true they are not being helped, they are being enabled.
One of the best things that ever happened to me was falling flat on my face. That helped me in ways that I can not even describe. Many people have a safety net that allows them to continue to live a destructive life so they never amount to anything, many die like that. It is sad to see too. Better to let people crash and burn then help them put the pieces back together than to let them hold on to the little they have while slowly destroying themselves. Unfortunately that is the majority of those on assistance and homeless as well.
S
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| Nov 18, 2008 @ 6:22 PM |
Conservative Economics - The Surest Path To Racial Equality
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delsoldamien
Posts: 135
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You are welcome, copsmom, and pass on my appreciation to your family, a proud family you are...
I did not mean my question to upset you, and I hope I didn't, but when it is stated on a forum, it usually means it is up for discussion..I believe in your right to vote anyway you want and not explain it to anyone, but I have heard a few people that have said the same thing and have yet to figure out how they could be moved that far to the left...but I respect your opinion and will not press it. Thanks
Seal, your life has had it's ups and downs, and it is through the trials and tribulations of life that our character is defined..you have alot to be proud of and your accomplishments are admirable. I believe that we should do something to help those that need the help, but only for enough time for them to change and move in the right direction and become contributing members of our society..I agree with you that we need to do something, but we shouldn't be strapped with the expense of people that continue to make bad decisions, partake in adverse behaviors that cause their self destruction, and feel that others should be responsible to provide for them.. As I said before, I am lucky, but I remember the stories my father would tell us about how half his family starved to death during the depression, and they didn't believe in taking hand outs. They scratched and clawed for everything they had, but it was theirs. They may not have had much, but nobody could take it away and they were happy with what they had. It was his life and motivation that pushed me to getting an education, which he told me was the key to breaking the cycle of poverty..I am thankful for the lessions taught and learned. My hat is off to you Seal...
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| Nov 18, 2008 @ 6:28 PM |
Conservative Economics - The Surest Path To Racial Equality |
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copsmomof2
Posts: 293
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Well see Seal - that's where we disagree. I have talked to many that have used the programs and bettered themselves - I have also talked to many that are low lifes and will never be anything else - they live off programs. It's very hard to tell which is which sometimes. I feel you have to maintain some sort of assistance to help those that want to help themselves. So you have to help those that don't deserve it too. The discrimination of not doing that is just unacceptable because here in the US we as a nation believe that it's always possible to get that desire to succeed and be a contributor instead of a taker. It's just the nature of the beast. I support those programs and don't mind tax money going to them - altho there are numerous programs that only get a non or not for profit exemption. They don't get govt money every month to keep them afloat. They rely on donations, fund raisers, and volunteers. It really costs you very little as a tax payor.
I'm not talking WIC, Medicaid, and other entities - I'm talking Salvation Army, Food Banks, and Shelters.
PS - tip of the bonnet to you too........... but that's all I'm tippin!!! 
Dels........ you didn't upset me a bit but thanks for being considerate enough to think of it! Man there are just gentlemen fallin over themselves today........ it's a good thing in Texas!!!! Thanks ya sir!
[Edited on 11/18/2008 6:34 PM]
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