| Feb 25 @ 3:49 PM |
would someone please explain what separation of church and state really means
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onoudn
Posts: 6,354
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Sure I have my own idea what Separation of Church and State is suppose to me. But, lets face it, I'm not a constitutional scholar, and my veiwpoint is skewed by my own personal bias. What it appears to mean to me is that the State can not establish an official religion, and dictate that it's citizens follow it---or something like that. On a good day I can quote case law, and argue the points pro and con with some degree of sense, or at least I think I can. But, today I'm just tired and really don't feel like being all that pursuacive. So I leave it up to you, the ever watchful users of MD to bestow upon me your wisdom on the subject.
Separation of Church and state what's the scope ?
[Edited on 2/25/2009 3:58 PM]
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| Feb 25 @ 4:41 PM |
would someone please explain what separation of church and state really means |
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RareQuestor
Posts: 2,652
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A fairly comprehensive capsule summary of the concept:
Separation_of_church_and_state
If you doubt the wisdom of the concept, just do a Google search for the phrase "definition of separation of church and state" as I did. You will immediately be bombarded with links to every form of religious bigotry imaginable.  Or you can spend a few years in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, China or Iran
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| Feb 25 @ 4:45 PM |
would someone please explain what separation of church and state really means
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Gallows_Humor
Posts: 13,673
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wiki rocks... 
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| Feb 25 @ 4:53 PM |
would someone please explain what separation of church and state really means |
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Snappygoddess
Posts: 5,104
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So I leave it up to you, the ever watchful users of MD to bestow upon me your wisdom on the subject.
Nope..not me.. I tried bestowing my "wisdom" on you and you rejected it as me trying to control your right to thought.....I wont go down that fruitless road again 
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| Feb 25 @ 5:17 PM |
would someone please explain what separation of church and state really means
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onoudn
Posts: 6,354
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| Feb 25 @ 5:20 PM |
would someone please explain what separation of church and state really means |
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Gallows_Humor
Posts: 13,673
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yeah.. I agree with you "O"... you do act sometimes....
btw..I agree with snappy too... 
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| Feb 25 @ 5:20 PM |
would someone please explain what separation of church and state really means
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CPUfan
Posts: 7,983
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In European history, countries were for a long time 'clerical,' the King, the nobility, the administration, authorities, education and legal system were Catholic...
Judges and lawyers enforced Catholic law. Universities were religious institutions. "Bachelor," "Master", "Doctor" etc were titles of the cloth (for men only) and Monks at universities discussed theology for a long time before they even discussed science or politics...
To cut a long story short, the English-speaking world developed religious, political, scientific and legal pluralism. Which meant that neither debates nor verdicts were determined by a single religion.
Scandinavian countries still have a monopoly cultural tradition based on the twin pillars of the nation state and the Lutheran state church. This is entirely different to what for instance Martin Luther King understood by Lutheranism.
England, America and the (later) Commonwealth were well on the way towards the separation of church and state in the late 1600s and early 1700s. The US constitution is actually founded on this principle. It means that any religion has freedom to practice, but that none has the right to invest the state, education, authorities or legal system. The constitution is an open, pluralist document that permits all religions to live without any sort of political interference.
Incidentally, as RQ so rightly points out, unlike the West, Islamist societies generally did not achieve the social and political separation of church and state, or of church and science. Science is tolerated in Islamist states to the extent that it does not challenge the religious faith or doctrine. The state and politics are subjugated to Sharia law.
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| Feb 25 @ 6:54 PM |
would someone please explain what separation of church and state really means |
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jamminjerry
Posts: 4,085
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my simple definition is that the church does not tell the state what to do and the state does not tell the church what to do. but, unfortunately we are a capitalistic society. and so, money talks! and righteousness walks. we be jammin
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| Feb 25 @ 7:20 PM |
would someone please explain what separation of church and state really means
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Paralegal_at_Law
Posts: 5,872
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Flash: For Immediate Release: Federal Government sponsors Taoist Religion!
I went to a seminar promoting doing business with the Federal Government and learned from the Business to Government Institute presenter ("B2G Institute") that the United States Department of Veterans Affairs is now letting contracts and actually constructing VA facilities with Fung Shua consultants that are paid for with government funds.
Feng Shui is based on the Taoist vision and understanding of nature, particularly on the idea that the land is alive and filled with Chi, or energy. The ancient Chinese believed that the land's energy could either make or break the kingdom, so to speak. The theories of yin and yang, as well as the five feng shui elements, are some of the basic aspects of a feng shui analysis that come from Taoism.
Link explaining Fung Shua as being founded in Taoist religious beliefs
To me, this like the Islamic foot baths at Kansas City's Midcontinent International Airport is a blatant example of a violation of the 'establishment of religion clause" of the First Amendment.
The Precision Thinker's viewpoint
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| Feb 25 @ 8:16 PM |
would someone please explain what separation of church and state really means |
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onoudn
Posts: 6,354
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From RareQuestor's link, well actually a link within the link....here.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties. (From Thomas Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptist)
So Thomas Jefferson was the first to use the term "Separation between Church and State." 
[Edited on 2/25/2009 8:52 PM]
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| Feb 25 @ 9:03 PM |
would someone please explain what separation of church and state really means
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POPO
Posts: 1,040
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Mr.O,
The first ten Amendments (Bill Of Rights) were ratified effective December 15, 1791
It reads as follows;
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free speech, or of the press;or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
In the original Constitution, it never says "The Seperation of Church and State"
nor does it appear in the "Declaration of Independence" The above quote was written in the ratification of the "Constitution" that was written September 17th 1787 and the "Declaration of Independence" was signed July 4th 1776.
The Constitution was ratified, to make sure that no church would have authority to rule this country or make rulings on this country.The country would have the right to practice their religion freely, providing it's done peacefully.
The term used quite often mainly by the left, "Seperation of Church and State" is erroneous, when cited as Constitutional Law.
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| Feb 25 @ 9:07 PM |
would someone please explain what separation of church and state really means |
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alivenwell351
Posts: 3,040
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The term used quite often mainly by the left, "Seperation of Church and State" is erroneous,
I'm on the right and I believe in separation of church and state being a two way street & absolutely necessary as strongly as I believe in anything....
Even as strongly as I believe the Bamasiah to be a fraud!!!...
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| Feb 25 @ 10:09 PM |
would someone please explain what separation of church and state really means
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Angel54214
Posts: 18,201
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Nice job Popo! 
Ono:
So Thomas Jefferson was the first to use the term "Separation between Church and State."
Do you know why Jefferson wrote this letter to the Danbury (Connecticut) Baptists?
Jefferson did not first use the term, it was an allience that Jefferson made to the state of Connecticut by the orignal letter that the Danbury Baptists Association that first wrote to him when he was first elected President. Connecticut was not one of the first states (within the 13 original colonies), that was ratified through the Bill of Rights. Hope you and others enjoy this history:
http://www.sunnetworks.net/~ggarman/danbury.html
The Bill of Rights was formed from a series of other legislature documents; one in particular regards to freedom of religion was the "Virginia Declaration of Rights" which was drafted by George Mason. Jefferson drafted the Virginia Constitution.
One of the first bills that was passed by Congress in 1811 was The Act Incorporating "The Protestant Epsicopal Church In The Town Of Alexandria, In The District Of Columbia", that Madison vetoed because this bill...
"Exceeds the rightful authority to which governments are limited by the essential distinction between civil and religious functions, and violates in particular the article of the Constitution of the United States which declares that ‘Congress shall make no law respecting a religious establishment."
Madison fully understood the "Bill of Rights"...
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=65921
[Edited on 2/25/2009 11:12 PM]
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| Feb 25 @ 10:54 PM |
would someone please explain what separation of church and state really means |
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RareQuestor
Posts: 2,652
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Consider, if you will, one extreme example:
In 1997 an Iranian police officer, Colonel Behzad Moghaddam, tried to rape a woman named Afsaneh Nowrouzi. She stabbed him to death while defending herself. She was arrested, imprisoned for four years and then sentenced to death in 2001. The case sparked an international outcry which forced the head of the judiciary, Ayatollah Mahmoud Hashemi Shahroudi, to order a review. The verdict was overturned only in 2005 because Moghaddam's family agreed to pardon her in exchange for $62,500. You read that correctly. An innocent woman had to pay $62,500 and spend eight years in prison for the right to defend herself from a sexual predator.
In Iran, a married woman who is raped can be convicted of adultery and sentenced to death. If she kills the attempted rapist, she can be tried for murder and sentenced to death.
http://www.iranfocus.com/en/women/victims-family-pardons-iranian-woman-seeks-blood-money.html
Note that there is no separation of state and church in Iran. Virtually all judges are priests whose knowledge of the law is usually limited to the Sharia. Each judge serves not only as judge but as prosecutor, jury, and arbiter. It a system designed for the deliberate abuse of power.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Iran
Our legal system may not be perfect, but I'll take it over the Sharia any day.
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| Feb 25 @ 11:15 PM |
would someone please explain what separation of church and state really means
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Angel54214
Posts: 18,201
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Iran and most Middle east countries are not a democracy. As one of Bush's main goals was to accomplish in Iraq through their new established government.
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| Feb 25 @ 11:37 PM |
would someone please explain what separation of church and state really means |
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Nightowl001
Posts: 7,509
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The term used quite often mainly by the left, "Seperation [sic] of Church and State" is erroneous, when cited as Constitutional Law. Better brush up on your terminology. (AND your spelling.)
The separation of church and state is a legal and political principle derived from the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." The phrase "separation of church and state" is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists, where Jefferson spoke of the combined effect of the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment. It has since been quoted in several opinions handed down by the United States Supreme Court. (From Wiki: Separation of Church and State) The principle, or concept, of the separation of church and state is codified in the First Amendement," and well-founded as a constiutional principle. Your opinion notwithstanding, SCOTUS has not only found it be a valid Constitutional argument, but one which they have based rulings on.
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| Feb 26 @ 12:41 AM |
would someone please explain what separation of church and state really means
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lacyvsq
Posts: 6,176
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It's just part of the Hegelian Dialectic.
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| Feb 26 @ 2:36 AM |
would someone please explain what separation of church and state really means |
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Say_Yes
Posts: 2,228
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Of course, it all depends on who you ask & what they want it to mean. It has been argued, probably since the day it was adopted & it likely will be argued till the end of our republic. In the statement
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion
the wording is somewhat ambiguous, in that it brings into question just what is meant by the term "establishment". From my perspective, the intention of the founding fathers was to allow for religious freedom among the people and among those in government.
In colonial America, several colonies required that a man must be a member of a specific church, if he was hold office. For example, in Virginia, you had to be a member of the Church of England. If you go to Williamsburg, you can see the pews that were owned by many of our founding fathers, including Jefferson. The official state church in Massachusetts, Connecticut, and New Hampshire was Congregational.
The Church of England, or Anglican Church, was the legally established religion throughout the Southern colonies. Because Anglicanism was the official state religion, its ministers were paid from public taxes. All residents were required to be members of the Church of England, except in Maryland, which had a significant Catholic population and a legal tradition of toleration. Leading planters controlled most congregations and used their power on the local vestries (boards of elected lay leaders) to control church finances and appoint ministers. Anglican ministers paid the most attention to families of the gentry, who represented a very small percentage of the population, and to yeoman farmers.
Source - Encyclopedia Encarta
After the revolution, we were governed by the Articles of Confederation, with the real power of government resting in the hands of state government. Many states included their state religion in their constitutions. For example:
After independence the American states were obliged to write constitutions establishing how each would be governed. In no place was the process more difficult than in Massachusetts. For three years, from 1778 to 1780, the political energies of the state were absorbed in drafting a charter of government that the voters would accept.
One of the most contentious issues was whether the state would support religion financially. Advocating such a policy--on the grounds that religion was necessary for public happiness, prosperity, and order--were the ministers and most members of the Congregational Church, which had been established, and hence had received public financial support, during the colonial period.
The Constitutional Convention chose to act as nursing fathers of the church and included in the draft constitution submitted to the voters the famous Article Three, which authorized a general religious tax to be directed to the church of a taxpayers' choice. Despite substantial doubt that Article Three had been approved by the required two thirds of the voters, in 1780 Massachusetts authorities declared it and the rest of the state constitution to have been duly adopted.
Source
If you go back to the writings of the day, to me at least, it becomes fairly evident that the establishment clause was written, not to keep the religion out of government, but rather to keep goverment out of religion. Its purpose was to prevent us from following the path of England, where the official state religion was Anglican & you had to be Anglican, if you were to be a part of the government. To this day, the Queen
has the constitutional title of "Supreme Governor of the Church of England". The canon law of the Church of England states, "We acknowledge that the Queen’s most excellent Majesty, acting according to the laws of the realm, is the highest power under God in this kingdom, and has supreme authority over all persons in all causes, as well ecclesiastical as civil."
Okay, it's from Wiki, Shoot me, It's getting late.
So, to sum up, in my mind, the courts have greatly perverted the intention of the founding fathers, in the way that they interpreted this amendment. After all, if the founding fathers truly intended there to be a wall between government & religion, then why has each session of congress always been opened by prayer & why were the founding fathers (including Jefferson) sworn into the office of the President, by placing their hand on a bible?
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| Feb 26 @ 9:05 AM |
would someone please explain what separation of church and state really means
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SweetNapaGuy
Posts: 8,527
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Those who are always seeking to remove separation between church and state, always imagine that it'll be THEIR church which will be in charge of the state.
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| Feb 26 @ 9:29 AM |
would someone please explain what separation of church and state really means |
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CPUfan
Posts: 7,983
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Our legal system may not be perfect, but I'll take it over the Sharia any day.
Absolutely no contest... In West Yorkshire now however, we are seriously facing the demand to introduce the Sharia in several towns. They'll never take us... 
Very interesting, SayYes. Now, Anglican is a very loose and diffuse concept in itself, since many proclaimed Anglicans actually had no tangible "church" to attend. It loosely comprised protestants generally - Methodists, Baptists, Presbytarians, Wesleyans etc. etc., - as well as those with a 'personal' protestant faith who actually attended different churches freely and irregularly. I understand this to have been the case with General George Washington prior to the break with parliament and King George. Anglican was a very loose 'state church' of 24 formally independent dominations, but admittedly it excluded Catholicism from office. In a rare moment of insight, the French said of the English that they had 24 religions and 'only one sauce' (Talleyrand).
Certainly it was a "prerequisite" to be 'Anglican / Church of England' to hold office or influential public positions in Britain from 1688 especially, but this was in fact more of an intent to exclude Catholics from such office. The Catholic schism and the Glorious Revolution had been intended to finally break the position of the Catholic church. Parliamentarians and the protestant majority from the 1600s were reluctant to do anything that might enable a return to power of Catholics by the "back door." Therefore such were denied access to both public office and the colonies for over a century. That was the end of Catholic England.
Already when the charters of the colonies were determined however, Elizabeth 1, a protestant, had already decided that there would be no significant Catholic influence on the administration of "her" colonies. Access was only allowed upon conversion and there were in fact instances of the poisoning of the wells of Catholic colonies where such were established on the eastern coast of America.
I'm not familiar with American historical sources about how this panned out in the early colonies, but it was fascinating to see your insight into these matters. 
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