| Aug 20 @ 11:38 AM |
Lockerbie victims express outrage over bomber's release
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Gallows_Humor
Posts: 13,645
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/aug/20/lockerbie-scotland-usa-release
.....The White House and the US state department emphasised that they had vigorously opposed Megrahi's release in discussions with their British counterparts.
"The United States deeply regrets the decision," said the White House spokesman Robert Gibbs. "As we have expressed repeatedly to officials of the government of the United Kingdom and to Scottish authorities, we continue to believe that Megrahi should serve out his sentence in Scotland. On this day, we extend our deepest sympathies to the families who live every day with the loss of their loved ones. We recognise the effects of such a loss weigh upon a family forever."
The secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, said: "The United States is deeply disappointed … Today, we remember those whose lives were lost on 21 December 1988 and we extend our deepest sympathies to the families who live each day with the loss of their loved ones due to this heinous crime."
Senator Frank Lautenberg, Democrat of New Jersey, said "It's an outrage, and heaven forbid that we are caving in for commercial needs to releasing prisoners who have committed terrible crimes. That sends a message out to terrorists."
More than 30 of the 189 Americans who perished on the flight were from the state of New Jersey.
Bob Monetti of Cherry Hill, New Jersey, whose 20 year-old son Rick was on the plane, said: "Personally I always thought compassion came just after somebody said 'forgive me,' and those are words I've never heard. Maybe some people are much more forgiving than I am."
Kathleen Flynn, whose 21 year-old son John Patrick was on the plane, decried the "twisted Scottish law where one minister can make a decision like this".
"Had we had the trial in the US would it have been different?" she asked.
Stan Maslow of Haddonfield, New Jersey, whose 30 year-old daughter Diane died on the plane, said the release is "heartbreaking".
"We've lived through this for 21 years," he told Fox News. "We've never had justice."
Frank Duggan, president of victims of Pan Am 103, a group that represents the families of the US victims, said he had been assured the Libyan government would give no public show of celebration.
"We were all afraid that this guy would go back to a hero's welcome," he said in a statement. "But there's going to be no dancing in the end-zone, as the expression goes."
wtf??
are you guys (United Kingdom and to Scottish authorities) brain dead??
what was there to gain by letting him out..??
he did the crime...he should do the time....
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| Aug 20 @ 9:12 PM |
Lockerbie victims express outrage over bomber's release |
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MotownManiax
Posts: 9,737
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Agree 100%, GH.
Latest news: Lockerbie bomber freed, returns to cheers in Libya ....he was welcomed with "cheers", mind you?
Not sure where everyone stands on this particular case, but since we have convicted terrorists in our own SuperMax prisons a likely scenario could very well crop up in this country, too.
I say if a terrorist is fairly convicted (and this by a preponderance of physical and/or circumstantial evidence), he or she serves their full time, even if that means dying in prison. They gave up any right for leniency, mercy, or pity by willfully, wantonly, and "expressly" taking the lives of innocent victims.
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| Aug 21 @ 4:30 AM |
Lockerbie victims express outrage over bomber's release
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bardnsage
Posts: 1,171
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I say if a terrorist is fairly convicted (and this by a preponderance of physical and/or circumstantial evidence), he or she serves their full time, even if that means dying in prison. They gave up any right for leniency, mercy, or pity by willfully, wantonly, and "expressly" taking the lives of innocent victims.
So,,, are gang bangers terrorist? What about plain jane run of the mill serial killers? Rapist?
Just thinking,,, why do all prisoners not serve their full time? Why do some get the book,,, and some just get thrown?
Could we not just have bombed the plane he flew back in?
Would we prosecute the families of the victims for hiring a contractor to kill this guy?
Would they serve their full time?
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| Aug 21 @ 5:44 AM |
Lockerbie victims express outrage over bomber's release |
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MotownManiax
Posts: 9,737
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What the hell are you even talking about? Make some sense first before you go spouting off defending a mass murderer.
Megrahi was given a hero's welcome on returning to Libya. He was cheered like a rock star. I just saw the footage, you should have seen it --- sickening. But there's nothing anyone can do about it now since he's safe and sound back home. That doesn't mean I have to "like" it, though.
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| Aug 21 @ 7:05 AM |
Lockerbie victims express outrage over bomber's release
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SensualGemini
Posts: 6,864
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.
....Megrahi had been granted another trial with Court of Criminal Appeal in Edinburgh, after it was found he "may have suffered a miscarriage of justice" Fhimah, his accused accomplice was acquitted during the same original trial.
....Cancer ridden, with an expected death in 3 months, he is supposed to be under house arrest in Libya, or Obama has threatened ties with Gadaffi will be strained.
...Megrahi only had a 27 year sentence and having served about 19 years, he would have already been paroled in the US.
...Rumor is that the UK is expected to obtain preference for the Libyan oil fields and we will just have to wait and see.
Attorney General Eric Holder issued a statement repudiating the legal grounding of Scottish Justice Minister Kenny MacAskill's decision to free Megrahi, who was serving a minimum of 27 years in jail. Gulf Daily News (Bahrain)
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Mo: I say if a terrorist is fairly convicted (and this by a preponderance of physical and/or circumstantial evidence), he or she serves their full time, even if that means dying in prison. They gave up any right for leniency, mercy, or pity by willfully, wantonly, and "expressly" taking the lives of innocent victims.
...I could agree Mo, but first, define what a terrorist is?
...Under the Patriot Act, an illegal immigrant that commits a crime that endangers human life can be tried as a terrorist if they choose to do so.
...What we often term as a police action, other countries call war and while we may call their reaction a terrorist act, they will call it an action of war.
...What we call aid, often military aid that is used against another country, that country certainly has the right to construe the US as aiding their enemy, that is killing their people, as also their enemy.
...Thousands of civilians are killed in war and just look at how many we are responsible for today in Iraq and Afghanistan. Who is the terrorist here in the eyes of the victims? Is it our Commander in Chief, Congress, the people, etc. ?
...In conclusion, I don't believe that one side's accusations of someone being a terrorist is always factual. The difference is if our hands are clean, the act was unprovoked and not connected as an act of war, then yes, I would agree that they are a terrorist.
....Regardless, they are the enemy and if one does bot believe in taking POW's, then a quick firing squad eliminates all of this BS.
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| Aug 21 @ 7:50 AM |
Lockerbie victims express outrage over bomber's release |
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Koray
Posts: 25
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just read this , and hope he does sue see what comes out .
Lockerbie bombing: victim's father to sue
The leading campaigner for justice over the Lockerbie tragedy, Dr Jim Swire, is planning a ground-beaking legal action more than 20 years after the terrorist attack that claimed 270 lives.
Dr Swire, whose daughter Flora, 24, died in the attack, is preparing to sue the Scottish prosecution service because he is convinced it deliberately blocked attempts to bring his daughter's "real" killers to court.
He is planning the action under human rights legislation just three days after it was disclosed that the only man convicted of the Lockerbie bombing is likely to be released later this month
His supporters claim that international politics prevented the truth from being uncovered during the investigation into the mid-air explosion which caused the deaths of 259 people on board Pan Am Flight 103 and a further 11 on the ground.
Dr Swire has told of his determination to bring his daughter's killers to justice in a letter sent to Kenny MacAskill, the Scottish Justice Secretary, in which he is critical of the Crown Office, which is responsible for criminal prosecutions in Scotland.
In the letter, he highlights the fact that evidence from a Heathrow security guard was suppressed for more than 12 years and did not figure at Megrahi's trial in 2000 and 2001.
The guard revealed that Pan Am's baggage area at Heathrow was broken into 17 hours before Flight 103 took off from the airport for New York.
Dr Swire believes that this was probably when the bomb was planted, not much earlier on a flight from Malta.
In his letter, sent on Aug 10, Dr Swire says that he is now "reluctantly" looking at two projects:
- "To take action against the Crown Office under Human Rights legislation, since I now believe that the Crown Office has deliberately obstructed my rights to know who killed my daughter and why she was not protected, and continues to do so," and
- "To seek annulment of the findings of the Lockerbie Fatal Accident Inquiry [of 1990] on grounds of withholding of evidence about Heathrow, and then to seek a new FAI or legitimate equivalent in its place."
Dr Swire suspects Iran was seeking revenge for the shooting-down of Iran Air Flight 655, with the loss of 290 lives, by the USS Vincennes in July 1988 – just five months before Lockerbie. Iran did not accept the US's claim that the incident was a mistake.
Dr Swire believes the families of the victims have been "pawns in a political scenario that had nothing to do with truth".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/scotland/6034698/Lockerbie-bombing-victims-father-to-sue.html
hope its of interest
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| Aug 21 @ 8:30 AM |
Lockerbie victims express outrage over bomber's release
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MotownManiax
Posts: 9,737
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I take it you think Megrahi might have been railroaded, eh SG? He was duly tried and convicted by the Scottish High Court of Justiciary, consisting of four respected Scottish judges. Some have pointed out that even the original prosecutor in the case said years later there were grounds for an appeal, but they failed to also include he doesn't believe Megrahi is innocent.
...I could agree Mo, but first, define what a terrorist is?
Some use the argument that one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Personally, I reject such reasoning as nonsense. The difference goes to methodology, tactics, intent, and the targets they choose.
The French Underground in WW2 carried out aggressive acts of sabotage and assassinations against German targets, with innocent French civilians suffering in the process (collateral damage anyone?). I'm sure the Nazis would have called the fighters "terrorists", but would most French, or any other sensibly intelligent observer? Would you?
The IRA targeted civilians as well as British soldiers to further their cause of Irish separatism. In many cases, they specifically targeted civilians for no other purpose than to spread terror and fear. It was murder, plain and simple.
The Allies in WW2 bombed the heart out of Germany and Japan, but since Nazi and Japanese barbarity created precedence, and Axis behavior promoted a no-quarter given war, we made no such distinction regarding combatants.
Terrorists "specifically" target innocents. They know all too well that in a fair fight they would never win against a conventional military force, so instead "purposely" choose the innocent, unprotected, and weak to create havoc, panic, and intimidate. Their intent is to sow terror for their own a narrow political, economic, or religious agenda. They have no respect for human life; no moral code to constrain their actions. They use methods designed to spread fear for fear's sake, and not to further any higher moral precept. What's more, they have no outside checks and balances to moderate their behavior. Terrorists, and the organizations that train, fund, and support them, are insular and answer to no one.
Just what did bringing down a plane load of innocent civilians accomplish for the "freedom fighters"? What was their ultimate goal if not simple revenge for a perceived wrong and a spectacular act of defiance?
We have the convicted bomber of the 1993 WTC attack that killed six people in one of our SuperMax prisons, Ramzi Yousef. You should read the bio of him, a real winner. If he has some terminal illness, would you advocate his early release? Do you even think him a terrorist that should have been imprisoned in the first place?
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| Aug 21 @ 9:07 AM |
Lockerbie victims express outrage over bomber's release |
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DiamondRain
Posts: 6,354
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The one who is brain dead is Obama.
Nearly 200 Americans were murdered by this Muslim terrorist. Obama calls this a "man made disaster."
Obama's reaction is hopelessly weak. This is a man who won't even acknowledge the Muslim terrorist threat in the first place, so I suppose you couldn't expect anything else.
I don't believe for one second that the White House couldn't have stopped this release from happening. That's complete BS.
Instead we get a weak statement from Obama with absolutely no effect at all.
What a jerk.
BTW... between 30 and 60 prisoners die of illnesses in Scottish prisons every year.
This guy committed the worst mass murder in their history.
If those 60 people -- who committed lesser crimes -- aren't let out for "compassionate reasons," why was he?
[Edited on 8/21/2009 9:14 AM]
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| Aug 21 @ 9:17 AM |
Lockerbie victims express outrage over bomber's release
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Nightowl001
Posts: 7,495
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The fact of the matter is, no matter what we think or like, the man was tried and convicted in the courts of another country, and is subject to their justice system. No, we CAN'T tell Scotland how to run their courts and parole system, any more than they, or Germany, or Great Britain, or any other country can tell us how to run ours.
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| Aug 21 @ 9:21 AM |
Lockerbie victims express outrage over bomber's release |
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MotownManiax
Posts: 9,737
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As much as my heart's with DR, I have to agree with Owl. It was up to the Scottish authorities and they made the decision to release. I don't agree, but that's their right.
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| Aug 21 @ 9:22 AM |
Lockerbie victims express outrage over bomber's release
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SensualGemini
Posts: 6,864
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Mo: I take it you think Megrahi might have been railroaded, eh SG? He was duly tried and convicted by the Scottish High Court of Justiciary, consisting of four respected Scottish judges. Some have pointed out that even the original prosecutor in the case said years later there were grounds for an appeal, but they failed to also include he doesn't believe Megrahi is innocent.
...I don't know if he was railroaded or not, but I do know that he was granted a new trial and here in the states, that indicates someone may not be guilty as charged.
...His accomplice was acquitted and I cannot imagine a panel of "four respected Scottish judges" passing down a measly 27 year sentence, if they thought he was responsible.
...But yes, I am leaning towards there is a lot more to this than has been revealed thus far.
Mo: Terrorists "specifically" target innocents.
...That is a reasonable definition, but obviously, some, or a lot of folks may not agree with it. Nevertheless and in my mind, that is a fair assessment and it does not matter if domestic or foreign.
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Koray: Lockerbie bombing: victim's father to sue
...That was interesting and I would have to agree, that there is more to it than was released, but do the Scot's even know anything, other than maybe they did not get the right guy, but the world was pacified? Or maybe they got the right guy, but for the wrong reasons and someone else, such as Iran was ultimately responsible and Scotland did not want to be the messenger that started a war.
...Regardless, in about 90 days or so, Megrahi is going to be dead and unless he has some last minute confession, the world may never know.
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| Aug 21 @ 9:31 AM |
Lockerbie victims express outrage over bomber's release |
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chubs
Posts: 2,534
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outrageous...we should go bomb scotland for letting that guy go 
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| Aug 21 @ 9:42 AM |
Lockerbie victims express outrage over bomber's release
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DiamondRain
Posts: 6,354
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Listen....
Obama managed to get those two women jailed in North Korea -- a country with whom we don't even have diplomatic relations -- off the hook. Yet you are telling me that the United States doesn't have the muscle to stop Scotland from letting this jerk out?
Keep dreaming. If you believe that you are hopelessly naïve.
Obama knew it was going to happen. And he did nothing to stop it.
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| Aug 21 @ 9:45 AM |
Lockerbie victims express outrage over bomber's release |
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CPUfan
Posts: 7,983
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Yes, we guys are brain dead. Or at least, the Scottish authorities are... London has no control over the decisions of Scottish courts. Scotland is devolved with its own parliament. Having said that however, it is dominated by Labour softies and nutjobs.
As apparently are its courts. This is the BBC report.
Britain and the US have strongly condemned the jubilant welcome given in Libya to the man convicted of the bombing of a US plane over Lockerbie. British Foreign Secretary David Miliband described the scenes as "deeply distressing".
Crowds greeted Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi off the plane in Tripoli after he was freed from a Scottish prison on compassionate grounds.
Many relatives of the victims of the 1988 bombing are angry at his release.
Most of the 270 people who died when Pan Am Flight 103 blew up over the Scottish town of Lockerbie were Americans.
US President Barack Obama said Megrahi's release, eight years into his life sentence, was "a mistake". He said his administration had told the Libyan government that Megrahi, who has terminal cancer, should not receive a hero's welcome and should be placed under house arrest.
British Foreign Secretary David Miliband said the sight of Megrahi being welcomed in the Libyan capital was very disturbing for the families of those who died in the bombing.
"Obviously the sight of a mass murderer getting a hero's welcome in Tripoli is deeply upsetting, deeply distressing," he told the BBC.
'Courageous decision'
Hundreds of people turned out to meet Megrahi's plane as it landed in Tripoli, many waving flags. The BBC's Christian Fraser, in Tripoli, described it as a welcome worthy of a returning rock star.
Christian Fraser
BBC News correspondent, in Libya
Despite the jubilant scenes in the capital, we haven't had any sense of triumphalism from government ministers. And we've still not had a statement from Colonel Gaddafi himself. I think the last thing the Libyans want in the run up to the 40th anniversary of the revolution, on 1 September, is this international condemnation.
There's no further news of al-Megrahi himself. It's a very quiet day in Tripoli - the first day of Ramadan. The streets are deserted, there's not much news in the media. We are told he might be taken south to a town in the desert to meet Col Gaddafi - presumably to thank him for all the lobbying he has done on his behalf.
And we now have it on a second source that he is actually a distant relative of Col Gaddafi, which might explain why the colonel has taken such a personal interest.
Megrahi, who had changed from the tracksuit he wore to leave Greenock prison in Scotland into a dark suit, was met by Col Gaddafi's son.
"I would like to thank the Scottish government for its courageous decision and understanding of a special human situation," Seif al-Islam Gaddafi was quoted as saying.
There was a considerable amount of new evidence to show that he was innocent, he is reported to have added. Megrahi was then taken to his family home where his wife, Aisha, said she was "overjoyed".
"It is a great moment, which we have been waiting for for nine years," she said. "The house is full to bursting, everyone who loves Abdelbaset is with us."
But relatives of those who died voiced growing anger and outrage at the decision to release him. Stephanie Bernstein, whose husband was killed in the bombing, said the Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill was "naive" in taking the decision to release Megrahi.
'A convenient scapegoat?'
"Thinking that somehow this shows that they are better people for being compassionate? This shows not compassion, it shows weakness," she told the BBC.
But other relatives reacted differently to the news.
British relatives' spokesman Dr Jim Swire, who lost his daughter Flora in the atrocity, reiterated his view that Megrahi had "nothing to do with" the bombing.
"I don't believe for a moment that this man was involved in the way that he was found to have been involved," he said.
Megrahi was convicted of murder in January 2001 at a trial held under Scottish law in the Netherlands but has always denied being behind the bombing.
Oil interests
Mr MacAskill announced the release order on Thursday morning, saying Megrahi probably had about three months to live.
Have Your Say I am ashamed to be Scottish. Where is the justice for the victims?
Ross MacDonald, Edinburgh. The fact that Megrahi's victims were shown no compassion was "not a reason for us to deny compassion to him and his family in his final days", he said.
Mr Miliband said the decision to release Megrahi had been a choice for the Scottish justice secretary alone. Libya's response would be closely scrutinised, he added.
"It's very important that Libya knows that how the Libyan government handles itself in the next few days will be very significant in the way the world views Libya's re-entry into the civilised community of nations," Mr Miliband said.
Some major British oil and gas companies, bidding for highly competitive contracts with the country, could benefit from improved relations between Libya and the UK following Megrahi's release, our correspondent says.
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| Aug 21 @ 9:47 AM |
Lockerbie victims express outrage over bomber's release
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Koray
Posts: 25
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do you belivee this was accidental ? same year five months before could it be related ?
1988, Iran Air Flight 655 was shot down by USS Vincennes on the Bandar Abbas-Dubai rout, which resulted in the loss of life of 290 innocent civilian from six nations including 66 children.
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| Aug 21 @ 9:51 AM |
Lockerbie victims express outrage over bomber's release |
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MotownManiax
Posts: 9,737
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SG, I agree that we too often dehumanize an enemy, and it makes innocent civilians unfortunate enough to be caught in the crossfire nameless, faceless targets who engender little sympathy. That needs to change. We must always use the utmost care when engaging any combatant.
I just read a Popular Mechanics article and saw a recent 60 Minutes segment on UAV's -- small, hi-tech, pilotless drones directed from an operator miles away that can linger over an area for up to 24 hrs, with censors so sensitive they can read a license plate thousands of feet away and can deliver laser-guided bombs to specific targets. They are being used ever more frequently in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Targets are almost never attacked cavalierly and indiscriminately. There is usually a well-documented history of aggressive behavior (planting of roadside bombs, ambush set-ups against our troops, terrorist leader hideouts) that precedes action.
The US military is ratcheting up production of these weapons and accelerating the training of the pilots who direct them.
The days of massive carpet bombings may be a thing of the past. Even the fog of war, which also leads to many innocent casualties, may become extinct.
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| Aug 21 @ 10:03 AM |
Lockerbie victims express outrage over bomber's release
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DiamondRain
Posts: 6,354
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...
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| Aug 21 @ 10:39 AM |
Lockerbie victims express outrage over bomber's release |
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DiamondRain
Posts: 6,354
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It's a game of chicken.
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| Aug 21 @ 10:41 AM |
Lockerbie victims express outrage over bomber's release
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DiamondRain
Posts: 6,354
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Somebody's got to break the ice.
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| Aug 21 @ 10:48 AM |
Lockerbie victims express outrage over bomber's release |
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DiamondRain
Posts: 6,354
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:X)
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