| Mar 25, 2006 @ 5:30 PM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution
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JesterDrawers
Posts: 10,902
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I know you don't mind a good debate, and would never run from one. Me, either. BUT...like you, I need someone to give me a substantive argument, with some thought behind it, and even if I don't agree I can respect that person's opinions and counter it with another argument of my own. In this case, however, there really was no response to your post...simply criticism and ridicule....I don't get it.
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| Mar 25, 2006 @ 5:53 PM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution |
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MotownManiax
Posts: 7,881
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If we go to war with every country that we have an issue with, and defeat them all, what have we accomplished? Surely not the spread of democracy as much as the spread of an imperialistic presence; something we've been accused of, and prior to now at least, I don't think we were guilty of.
I’m assuming you’re referencing our involvement in Afghanistan, Heaven. I agree that we should not have a war with every country that disagrees with us, and we don't (and for the most part haven't unless provoked).
But there's a very concrete distinction between your statement and what we did/are doing in Afghanistan. Afghanistan has nothing to do with “imperialism”; it has to do with preventing a country from lapsing back into a government that produced a 9-11. And the outcome directly affects all Americans.
For their direct involvement in 9-11, we were perfectly justified -- by most of the worldwide community, and even people now vociferously opposed to the Iraq War, I may add -- to invade Afghanistan and take out the Taliban. In view of the circumstances and evidence, this act of force was totally legitimate and unquestioned.
The Taliban was also the ruling government, so of course by doing so left the country without one. We could have just packed up and left, but that would have just made the country prostrate and ripe for a Taliban resurgence, and we’d be back exactly where we left off. Most would argue even weaker than before because it would tell the rest of the world we don’t finish what we start, and give terrorists everywhere a fresh contempt for our pathetic vacillation.
We're "staying" in Afghanistan right now not to remake them into America East or a vassal state, but to ensure a peaceful transition to a government not hostile to the United States.
We rebuilt a devastated Japan and Germany right after WWII with the same intentions; to incubate a stable, viable government, strongly immune (hopefully) from developing into what they were before, governments bent on world conquest.
Nobody accused the US of imperialism then? And by all standards of measurement those countries have turned out pretty darn well. They are now, and have been for 60 years, peaceful, constructive partners in world affairs.
When will some people finally understand the difference???
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| Mar 25, 2006 @ 5:57 PM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution
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dixiepixie
Posts: 865
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I didn't mention anyone's name in particular when I made the observation - odd you would think I was referencing you in my post. Just to refresh my memory I did go back and look at your posts and LO AND BEHOLD -- Contrary to what you are saying now, that you only called the poster's "opinion" ethnocentric... Here is what you actually said - literally referring to the poster as ethnocentric
On Mar 22 @ 10:43AM you posted
but please do not be ethnocentric. That's one thing that just really, really gets me going.
On Mar 23 @ 10:26AM you posted
Felici......
I think the poster is being ethnocentric.
On Mar 23 @ 11:52AM you posted
i do think you are being ethnocentric.
Now, to address your statement:
I do not believe you are inside my head so I do not believe you can make the call whether or not I was trying to silence the original poster.
Why would you think I was talking about you in the generalized comment I made regarding the low blow of calling people racist and/or ethnocentric and how it is typically a tactic to silence people... You must have identified with something I said or you would not have been so defensive about my post.
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| Mar 25, 2006 @ 6:30 PM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution |
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 15,333
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We rebuilt a devastated Japan and Germany right after WWII with the same intentions; to incubate a stable, viable government, strongly immune (hopefully) from developing into what they were before, governments bent on world conquest.
Nobody accused the US of imperialism then? And by all standards of measurement those countries have turned out pretty darn well. They are now, and have been for 60 years, peaceful, constructive partners in world affairs.
Mo, of course you're right, I was thinking about Iraq, we certainly did have every right to go into Afghanistan, and yes, what we did in Japan and Germany was very similar. I stand corrected.
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| Mar 25, 2006 @ 8:05 PM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution
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FeliciVagano
Posts: 2,152
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For their direct involvement in 9-11, we were perfectly justified -- by most of the worldwide community, and even people now vociferously opposed to the Iraq War, I may add -- to invade Afghanistan and take out the Taliban. In view of the circumstances and evidence, this act of force was totally legitimate and unquestioned
Mo..you took this on a tangent, not I...the OP was commenting on the fact (IMO) that the new government is acting the same as the old government in Afghanistan. MY POINT is that for all the posturing that is being done...it is still the same old story.
You took it to the extreme that it was of vital national defense to invade, and subjugate Afghanistan (to your way of thinking.) I mostly have taken issue with your repeating all the hype that you were spoon fed. ( garbage in and garbage out ).
I do not pretend to know any answers, nor do I have any reason to solve the unsolvable- why some foreign governments condone terrorism and hate our way of life, to the point that we as Americans are losing personal freedoms that we should take for granted.. Are you aware that to even VISIT the white house an AMERICAN CITIZEN has to go through a security background check?... Please read this excerpt and then think long and hard about all the hype that you repeat....
Published on Thursday, February 2, 2006 by CommonDreams.org
A 9/11 Conspirator in King Bush's Court?
Sheehan Wasn't Welcome But a Saudi Accused of Support for al Qaeda Was
by Jeremy Scahill
While Cindy Sheehan was being dragged from the House gallery moments before President Bush delivered his State of the Union address for wearing a t-shirt honoring her son and the other 2,244 US soldiers killed in Iraq, Turki al-Faisal was settling into his seat inside the gallery. Faisal, a Saudi, is a man who has met Osama bin Laden and his lieutenants on at least five occasions, describing the al Qaeda leader as "quite a pleasant man." He met multiple times with Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar. Yet, unlike Sheehan, al-Faisal was a welcomed guest of President Bush on Tuesday night. He is also a man that the families of more than 600 victims of the 9/11 attacks believe was connected to their loved ones' deaths.
Al-Faisal is actually Prince Turki al-Faisal, a leading member of the Saudi royal family and the kingdom's current ambassador to the US. But the bulk of his career was spent at the helm of the feared Saudi intelligence services from 1977 to 2001. Last year, The New York Times pointed out that "he personally managed Riyadh's relations with Osama bin Laden and Mullah Muhammad Omar of the Taliban. Anyone else who had dealings with even a fraction of the notorious characters the prince has worked with over the years would never make it past a U.S. immigration counter, let alone to the most exclusive offices in Washington." Al-Faisal was also named in the $1 trillion lawsuit filed by hundreds of 9/11 victims' families, who accused him of funding bin Laden's network. Curiously, his tenure as head of Saudi intelligence came to an abrupt and unexpected end 10 days before the 9/11 attacks.
"Nobody explained the circumstances under which he left," says As'ad AbuKhalil, author of The Battle for Saudi Arabia: Royalty, Fundamentalism, and Global Power. "We know for sure that he was tasked by the United States government back in the late 1970s and on to assemble the kind of Arab Muslim fanatical volunteers to help the United States and the C.I.A. in the fight against the Soviet communist regime [in Afghanistan]. In the course of doing that, this man is single-handedly most responsible for the kind of menace that these fanatical groups now pose to world peace and security." Yet, there al-Faisal sat on Tuesday as President Bush spoke of his war on terror and Cindy Sheehan was being booked. At one point, the cameras even panned directly on al-Faisal listening intently to Bush.
The 9/11 families' lawsuit charged that al-Faisal secretly traveled to the southern Afghan city of Kandahar twice in 1998 where he met with bin Laden's representatives and Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar. Based on sworn testimony from Taliban intelligence chief, Mullah Kakshar, the lawsuit claimed that al-Faisal allegedly received assurances that al Qaeda would not use "the infrastructure in Afghanistan to subvert the royal families' control of Saudi government." In return, according to the lawsuit, the Saudis promised not to seek bin Laden's extradition or the closing of his training bases. Al-Faisal also allegedly promised Mullah Omar financial assistance. Shortly after the meetings, the Saudis reportedly shipped the Taliban 400 new pickup trucks. According to the London Observer, Kakshar also said that al-Faisal "arranged for donations to be made directly to al-Qaeda and bin Laden by a group of wealthy Saudi businessmen. 'Mullah Kakshar's sworn statement implicates Prince Turki as the facilitator of these money transfers in support of the Taliban, al-Qaeda and international terrorism,'" according to the lawsuit.
Al-Faisal does not deny he traveled to Afghanistan in 1998 for meetings with Mullah Omar, but he insists it was to "convey an official Saudi request to extradite Osama bin Laden." al-Faisal has a long history in Afghanistan. ......
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| Mar 25, 2006 @ 9:28 PM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution |
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MotownManiax
Posts: 7,881
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Felici, I'm glad we agree about the need to retaliate against such flagrant aggression as 9-11 (nuke 'em right where they stand, you say -- effective, though a bit bloodthirsty). For once I'll play the moderate on this one.
We had no way of knowing "exactly" where bin Laden and his lieutenants were in Afghanistan (during his presidency Clinton tried to assassinate him and was confronted with the same problem) so anything short of “nuking” the whole country would have been the pure murder of a nation. THEN the world would rightly condemn us for mass genocide. I’d rather we took the course we did, and not punish a whole population for the sins of the government. Plus, just taking out bin Laden would have left the Taliban and a strong Al Qaeda presence in Afghanistan, thus a safe haven and launching pad for future attacks by radical terrorists.
As for bin Laden’s CIA ties, I believe you’re inferring that since bin Laden was once trained and supplied by the CIA he is supposedly innocent and exonerated of his planning and execution of 9-11?
First off, his CIA connection is old news. How many times have former "allies", if that's what you want to term him, switched allegiances and turned against former “friends”. Funny, he had absolutely no problem taking CIA training and accepting supplies in the war against the Soviets? He welcomed it, as a matter of fact. Where was his religious conscience then? Second, giving somebody carte blanche to attack this country because they were somehow “wronged” way back when is totally unacceptable. Try selling that to your fellow citizens. No, terrorists don’t get a free pass because they feel the US oppressed them in a former life.
Also conspicuously absent in your voluminous remarks is how you would handle the war on terrorism? I hear a lot of bitching and complaining about Bush this and Bush that but nothing constructive and realistic on what we need to do to confront the threat in the here and now?
Btw, for people that want a simple primer about just what Al Qaeda is please go to these two links for info (both reputable and non-partisan):
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9126/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/
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| Mar 26, 2006 @ 3:55 AM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution
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FeliciVagano
Posts: 2,152
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Mo ..Mo ..Mo... 
http://www.ringnebula.com/Oil/Timeline.htm
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| Mar 26, 2006 @ 11:13 AM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution |
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t_h_e_b_r_a_t
Posts: 386
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I think the point of the original post was that these people won't even abide by their own laws. They just keep twisting/interpreting things to suit their whims, most of the time that whim being to murder someone. For me, that just further proves that they shouldn't be trusted or respected by anyone.
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| Mar 26, 2006 @ 11:46 AM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution
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MotownManiax
Posts: 7,881
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Felici, are you honestly trying to tell me with your little "timeline" link that this whole terrorism thing is one, gigantic conspiracy scheme by not just Bush, but somehow involved Clinton, Bush Sr, Reagan, and even Carter(!). Amazing how so many different adminstrations could agree on something so complicated?
Forgive me, but I'm sure you think Kennedy was assasinated by a team combination of the Mob, Cuban nationals, Soviet agents, and radicals in Kennedy's own administration (Johnson's secret army).
Next you'll tell me we didn't really land on the moon -- that little piece of history was faked in Arizona.
Maybe you still believe the world is flat??
I remember some of your more outrageous conspiracy theories from earlier posts, but this one takes the cake.
The "firm" evidence is bin Laden was the main instigator and acted, along with his radical brethren, to plan and execute 9-11. There is no "legitimate" proof Bush knew about or acted in concert with bin Laden regarding 9-11, or that the whole thing was about oil. Radical terrorists simply hate the US and the West because they think we are infidels and non-believers, lower than dogs.
Your hatred of Bush and seeming contempt for our political system has blinded you into placing blame away from the real culprits, ones that stare you right in the face and confess??? Bin Laden has told the world he is responsible for 9-11...not Bush, not Cheney, not Congress, not past administrations, but bin Laden -- period.
To be so jaded and cynical to think Bush would be involved in attacking his own country for, what, monetary gain (oil money?) is simply ridiculous.
Unbelievable.
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| Mar 26, 2006 @ 3:31 PM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution |
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FeliciVagano
Posts: 2,152
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Motown, you are boring me here. You are entitled to your opinion. This is a fact..
But you have repeatedly tried to talk down to me, change what ever I type into a different meaning. And are now rewriting what I posted before, based on your faulty memories..
The facts are always in black and white.
Russia invaded Afghanistan to control said pipeline... We intervened because we wanted to control said pipeline.. The Taliban wanted to control said pipeline. And We......Same ole same ole
I am extremely tired of your long draw out posts that just reiterate others opinions, yet you now try to say my cut and pasting is not valid. All I ever expect from my posts are for people to read the facts and draw their own conclusions...
I am also tired of your not answering questions that are asked of you, but you ask redundant questions over and over again..
I stated my view on the twin tower attack.. And you ran with it saying that I want to Nuke Afghanistan as a country.
You are a sad person Mo, who hides behind words and pictures.. The real person in you has to be right so badly that he cannot stand another (me) having a different viewpoint, and you are resorting to trying to bully and belittle.. Just reread your posts...
The "firm" evidence is bin Laden was the main instigator and acted, along with his radical brethren, to plan and execute 9-11. There is no "legitimate" proof Bush knew about or acted in concert with bin Laden regarding 9-11, or that the whole thing was about oil. Radical terrorists simply hate the US and the West because they think we are infidels and non-believers, lower than dogs.
Your hatred of Bush and seeming contempt for our political system has blinded you into placing blame away from the real culprits, ones that stare you right in the face and confess??? Bin Laden has told the world he is responsible for 9-11...not Bush, not Cheney, not Congress, not past administrations, but bin Laden -- period.
To be so jaded and cynical to think Bush would be involved in attacking his own country for, what, monetary gain (oil money?) is simply ridiculous.
Unbelievable.
Show me where I stated any of this... 
You are pathetic, out of shape, and not worth anymore of my time here..
.I repeat.. You bore me.. and I am done for now... Ciao, Felici Vagano
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| Mar 26, 2006 @ 3:35 PM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution
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LipGlossQueen9
Posts: 10,088
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Felici.....
don't try to further your argument with pointless personal attacks. all it does is make you look dumb and like you're out of fuel. attack your opponent's point of view, not your opponent. you know nothing about MotownManiax and most likely are wrong about him. to hide behind the anonymity of the internet and attack people you do not know, does it make you feel good?
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| Mar 26, 2006 @ 5:37 PM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution |
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MotownManiax
Posts: 7,881
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Felici, I’m not going to beat you up or stoop to your level of visceral name-calling. But I WILL try to understand what you’ve wrote so far, get your “facts” straight, and figure out exactly what your views are, since you seem incapable of clearly stating them yourself.
1) You believe there is no worldwide Islamic terrorist network, only a powerful conspiracy over oil; specifically a power grab for an oil pipeline in Afghanistan by the United States government in general, and the Bush family in particular. This conspiracy also somehow included the active participation of the administrations of Clinton, Reagan, Carter, and global companies like Halliburton over the past 30 years. This is from your own “timeline”, which you provided as the main back up to your argument.
2) Bin Laden is really a Bush stooge, and, along with nefarious members of the Saudi Royal family, created 9-11 as a ruse for Bush to invade Afghanistan to secure said pipeline.
I know you’re done with this thread (your own words) so I’m not sure I'll get the satisfaction of knowing whether I’m explaining your views correctly.
Forgive, but it sounds like a lot of hogwash if you ask me. 
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| Mar 26, 2006 @ 6:34 PM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution
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DawolfLover
Posts: 568
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Let me see if I have this correct. If not, feel more than free to correct me. I welcome the knowledge.
Middle eastern muslim = bad, because they don't respect their own constitution because they are willing to kill somone in the name of their God? They also twist their belief to fit the situation sothey can justify murder and other terrible acts?
The first point i'd like to make is that one bad apple doesn't make the bushel bad. Just because some muslims do this, doesn't mean they all do.
How many of us have heard of American Christians bombing abortion clinics and murdering abortion doctors in the name of God? Does that mean because a few Christians do it that all Christians must be bad? Of course not.
If you judge an entire group of people by the zealots of the group, just about everyone looks evil. Everyone has their own version of how to believe and how not to believe. Just about everyone here could quote there favorite passage from the bible that they follow religiously. All the while they skip a passage here or there that maybe they don't think is interpretted the same way you might.
Lipgloss is right though, we need to focus on America and less on societies that don't necessarily want our help. We aren't the world police and we don't really want to be.
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| Mar 26, 2006 @ 6:56 PM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution |
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suzieq0808
Posts: 1,080
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Ah thank the good lawd for sanity from the young people. There's hope for the world.
I'm being a little facetious but genuine in my compliments to the young'uns here, i.e., LipGlossQueen and DaWolfLover.
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| Mar 28, 2006 @ 10:06 AM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution
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t_h_e_b_r_a_t
Posts: 386
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By now it has gotten to the point where seeing is believing. IF I ever see a peaceful muslim, I will believe there is one. Still hasn't happened to date, but I have seen and heard a lot of the azzhole ones.
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| Mar 28, 2006 @ 1:33 PM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution |
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LipGlossQueen9
Posts: 10,088
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i used to be a muslim. maybe it doesn't count because i'm not anymore, or because i'm white, but i did used to be of the islamic faith and i never did or had the urge to blow anyone or anything to bits.
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| Mar 28, 2006 @ 1:36 PM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution
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MrMikey
Posts: 108
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Just goes to show the BIG difference between muslims and christians when in this century muslims would still try to put someone to death just for converting, against their OWN constitution.
What is this thread "really" about then?
Muslims being inferior to Christians?
Muslims not respecting their own constitution?
I think the Afghan Constitution states that "the religion of Afghanistan is the sacred religion of Islam. Followers of other religions are free to perform their religious ceremonies within the limits of the provisions of law."
But it also states that "In Afghanistan, no law can be contrary to the sacred religion of Islam and the values of this Constitution."
I'm no lawyer, but it seems like there's an apparent contradiction here, and as with all constitutions, the interpretation is probably open to legal argument.
I would also suggest that plenty of Christians all over the world don't necessarily respect the constitutions of their own nations either. Indeed, now that I think of it, America itself seems to have a wanton disregard for International Law ( probably along with many other countries) when it suits its own ends. So in all likelyhood peoples of all creeds and beliefs all over the world at times don't respect their constitutions.
So, it seems to me that this thread is really just another of the many threads supporting the inferiority of Muslims and Islam, and the apparent superiority of Christians.
Lets move on from these arguments people...its the same tired rhetoric over and over again.
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| Mar 28, 2006 @ 7:49 PM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution |
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suzieq0808
Posts: 1,080
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So, it seems to me that this thread is really just another of the many threads supporting the inferiority of Muslims and Islam, and the apparent superiority of Christians.
Lets move on from these arguments people...its the same tired rhetoric over and over again.
I'd change apparent to alleged then agree 100%. 
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| Mar 29, 2006 @ 10:10 AM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution
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tezra
Posts: 195
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Apparently, Italy offered this man sanctuary in their country, but he isn't allowed to leave. Why not? The only thing he can expect staying is to be murdered, and the people keeping him there KNOW it.
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| Mar 29, 2006 @ 10:17 AM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution |
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LipGlossQueen9
Posts: 10,088
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tezra i think that he was let off, i'm not sure though.
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