| Apr 4, 2006 @ 2:12 AM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution
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RareQuestor
Posts: 1,506
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This is nothing new. Countries throughout history have intervened in global affairs for their own version of these interests, so it should not come as a shock to anyone that a country as large and powerful as the US has and is actively involved in these kinds of global matters.
Over history, some countries have done it strictly in the name of conquering. Others have done it out of necessity and self-preservation -- i.e., a state attacks threatening neighbors preemptively, before they in turn were invaded. Still others have been to secure trading routes or colonial rights for economic expansion
This is actually part of the reason why it has been so difficult to defeat the insurgency in Iraq: It is located in a bad neighborhood and, worse, it is saddled with the legacy of Saddam Hussein.
Allow me to indulge in a brief geography lesson. Iraq is bordered by Iran, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria and Turkey.
Saddam launched the Iran-Iraq war in 1980 and during the next eight years of that war approximately 600,000 Iranians were killed (or almost as many as perished during the entire American civil war.) Anybody who thinks that Iran will forget that is insane. Moreover, Iran has historically been a major power in this area. The mullahs who control Iran today have every reason to support the insurgency and every reason to fear a democratic and united Iraq.
The Iraqi conquest and occupation of Kuwait in 1990 was one of the most brutal since the end of WW2. The Iraqis damn near destroyed the entire country before they were driven out in Operation Desert Storm. You can bet that the Kuwaitis have not forgotten or forgiven that. A democratic Iraq is in the best interest of Kuwait, of course, but I do not doubt that elements of their intelligence agencies and military are covertly causing as much trouble as possible. Revenge is still a basic duty in the Middle East.
Saudi Arabia was also attacked during the first Gulf War and the Saudis have not forgotten that. Moreover, Iraq is a potential competitor in terms of oil exports and it is in the Saudis' economic interest to discourage a healthy Iraq. Ditto for Kuwait.
Syria and Turkey have been enemies of Iraq for nearly forty years now. Both countries took part in the first Gulf War. Saddam's genocidal campaign against the Kurds drove millions of them into Turkey and many of those refugees were recruited by the Kurdish guerrillas who were fighting for an independent homeland. The Turks also ruled Iraq for hundreds of years.
Jordan is the only neighbor that was more or less friendly and even those bonds have been strained and fractured by Al Qaeda.
Then you have Israel to the west and Russia to the north. It should not be forgotten that the Israel was the only nation attacked during the first Gulf War that was unable to retaliate in some manner. Saddam's thugs fired Scuds at Jerusalem and Tel Aviv and all the Israelis could effectively do about it was to bitch to Washington. Russia was a major power and would like to be one again and Russia also wants access to the the oil that Iraq produces.
Given this history of hostility and intervention and the lack of any democratic traditions, it is rather remarkable that America has been able to accomplish as much as we have.
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| Apr 4, 2006 @ 8:12 AM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution |
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MotownManiax
Posts: 7,881
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Totally agree, Questor. 
The region has the twin distinction of being strategically vital (to the US, but even more so to Europe, though you'd never know it by their timidity) and extremely volatile because of the historical/cultural reasons you outlined so well.
Bottom line is, we can't ignore it.
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| Apr 4, 2006 @ 8:51 AM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution
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MrMikey
Posts: 108
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timidity in Europe? Let's see now..the following countries have/had forces in Iraq:
Albania, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Georgia, Italy, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Spain, United Kingdom, and Ukraine
A very poor European response alright. You shouldn't equate opposition to the war with timidity.
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| Apr 4, 2006 @ 8:55 AM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution |
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MotownManiax
Posts: 7,881
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A few hundred token troops per country is not the voice of strength, Mikey.
I don't think there's any question America is shouldering the main burden in the Middle East. We're the ones spending billions and have the most casualties, by far.
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| Apr 4, 2006 @ 10:57 AM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution
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MrMikey
Posts: 108
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I know America shoulders most of the burden, but my point really was that opposition here in Europe does not equate to timidity. France and the UK, in particular, know all about the cost of doing as America is doing right now in the Middle East. As you rightly point out, Europe has as much of an interest in the Middle East as anyone else, for it own ends, like everyone else. But just because we don't think invading the place is necessarily the right thing to do, doesn't mean we're cowards. What's that old saying about bullies usually being more afraid, and less intelligent, than those being bullied...
And as far as I know Russia is more strategically important to Europe, from an energy point of view, than the Middle East due to the huge amount of gas imported from their. Although I'm open to correction on this point.
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| Apr 4, 2006 @ 11:03 AM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution |
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tezra
Posts: 195
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"Pardon me, but I seem to recall that just recently you were complaining about other people stereotyping all Gypsies."
Which they do, but at least the gypsies maintain a sense of humor about it. Find one of those peaceful ones, and I will volunteer to hold the brat back while they laugh at her, IF you can. I doubt it as much as she does.
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| Apr 4, 2006 @ 11:17 AM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution
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t_h_e_b_r_a_t
Posts: 386
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LOL Wouldn't have to hold me back. I would laugh right along with them, and be very grateful that there was at least one who could counteract the impression the rest are giving.
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| Apr 5, 2006 @ 12:43 AM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution |
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sealacamp
Posts: 3,151
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That was rude and uncalled for. Is that how they teach Christians to talk to people?
Who are they? Who are you? Who am I? And yes. Calls them like I sees them. After several attempts to accurately describe the facts at hand what seems obvious is apparently not to some. There you go.
If people are not "understanding" your perspective, and that would seem to be the case, perhaps explaining it in a different way or using an analogy would be effective.
No argument from me. I just run out of words and patience at times. Still I really can not understand what is so hard to comprehend about what is going on in that area of the world. It is the same thing that has been going on for 10,000 years and is a matter of well documented historical record, if someone should choose to read them. At least they don't cut open the pregnant women and dash babies to death on rocks like they used to do for a few thousand years. I guess that is some improvement. Really though we all have a long way to go. And it is easier to find errors in others that it is in your self (my self) as the case may be. So let those that have done no wrong throw the first stones. Guess that rules me out for sure. Any takers?
S
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| Apr 5, 2006 @ 12:58 AM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution
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Lovely1368
Posts: 112
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" And yes. Calls them like I sees them."
Yikes! Honesty can get you in real trouble in here. LOL
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| Apr 5, 2006 @ 2:48 AM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution |
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simplegal873
Posts: 141
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Everyone might want to remember that even though the United States of America was founded on the premise of securing its citizens the numerous freedoms and rights we enjoy, many countries do not enjoy the same rights as we do under the laws of their respective governments. We see this as an outrage, where many residing in other countries where they do not have the religious freedom or other rights that we take for granted daily, would view this as perfectly acceptable and normal.
You might be Pro Bush or very much against our leader, but in other countries it could mean giving your life to speak out against leaders of your country.
My personal philosphy, whether we agree or not with what goes on in other countries, is WHO are we to judge and impose our philosophies, standards, and laws on citizens of other countries? If you look at it this way, then maybe you can begin to comprehend why, in many other countries, the United States is seen as a "bully" or the bad country. Incidentally, Muslims do not have a "Constitution". It is a religion, just as being Christian, Baptist, Catholic, and Jew or whatever are religions.
Through my work, I have had the opportunity to know people from many faiths, ethnic backgrounds and nationalities. I do not see how anyone could judge that many people based on actions by a few, and I prefer to judge them based on my personal experience with the individuals themselves.
God Bless America, God Bless the World
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| Apr 5, 2006 @ 8:19 AM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution
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suzieq0808
Posts: 1,080
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And yes. Calls them like I sees them.
Of course, you're welcome to communicate any way you choose. However, people tend to ignore the remainder of a message once they've been insulted. It's kind of hard drive home your point when people aren't listening. All you're left with after an insult are those who already agree and are cheering, "Yeah, you tell 'em!" It becomes a waste of time, typing, and perfectly good brain power.
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| Apr 5, 2006 @ 9:06 AM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution |
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RareQuestor
Posts: 1,506
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My personal philosphy, whether we agree or not with what goes on in other countries, is WHO are we to judge and impose our philosophies, standards, and laws on citizens of other countries?
I do not intend to offend you, simplegal, but that is precisely the sort of logic that enabled Hitler and his thugs to murder eleven million people in Auschwitz, Buchenwald, Treblinka and other concentration camps. 
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| Apr 5, 2006 @ 9:18 AM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution
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alantc
Posts: 18
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I would like to voice an opinion here and yes my country has sent troops to Iraq ( and please dont call it a token force as they are special forces soldiers). If the money we spent on the middle east was directed for 2 years to developing an alternative fuel to oil then the only weapons these people would have would be to throw rocks at us. Cut the whole region economically as it has been a basket case since time immemorial. Read the Bible or the Koran they have been fighting for thousands of years.
If they have no oil income how will they live? Freeze their assets overseas and find an alternative fuel like hydrogen.
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| Apr 5, 2006 @ 10:19 AM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution |
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MotownManiax
Posts: 7,881
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I totally agree, alantc.
The only reason most of the world pays attention to the Middle East is because of oil. Developed countries need it, developing countries want it. Can you imagine the demand a country like China will have in just five years if present trends continue???
Believe me, the day when a dependable alternative fuel becomes readily available and everyone can wean themselves off oil once and for all I'll be the first one dancing on the tables. Imagine how OPEC will react when their cash cow is finally kaput?...lol.
But, unfortunately, that day hasn't come yet, so for now we're all stuck with the status quo. The only good thing about the current high price of oil is it's giving added incentive to the search for viable alternatives. Maybe the day of our deliverance won't be far off after all?
The US will still be heavily involved in the Middle East because of our friendship with Israel, though. As long as the region possesses radical Islamic demagogues and ruthless dictators it will be a dangerous place.
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| Apr 5, 2006 @ 5:24 PM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution
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sealacamp
Posts: 3,151
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However, people tend to ignore the remainder of a message once they've been insulted. It's kind of hard drive home your point when people aren't listening.
You're right.
S
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| Apr 6, 2006 @ 12:31 PM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution |
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Lovely1368
Posts: 112
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"WHO are we to judge and impose our philosophies, standards, and laws on citizens of other countries?"
Uh, excuse me, but have you forgotten that the muslims are the ones trying to CONTROL as much, if not more so, than the US. An example would be the stupid cartoon hooplah. In a country where they are a fairly insignificant minority, they want to control what EVERYONE is allowed to read in the papers. If you go further into the religion, it seems based in the concept of controlling others.
"If you look at it this way, then maybe you can begin to comprehend why, in many other countries, the United States is seen as a "bully" or the bad country."
The same as punks view cops.
Incidentally, Muslims do not have a "Constitution".
Funny, there was recently a big uproar about one of their consitutions calling for killing a man just for converting to Christianity. Guess you missed that despite it being in the title of the thread.
"It is a religion, just as being Christian, Baptist, Catholic, and Jew or whatever are religions."
I don't think it is in any way similar.
"I prefer to judge them based on my personal experience with the individuals themselves."
As do I, which is where I get my opinions from.
"God Bless America, God Bless the World"
Only thing in your post I really agree with, but these muslims you want to defend would be completely offended by that.
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| Apr 16, 2006 @ 12:53 PM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution
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ravensday
Posts: 388
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The first point i'd like to make is that one bad apple doesn't make the bushel bad. Just because some muslims do this, doesn't mean they all do.
How many of us have heard of American Christians bombing abortion clinics and murdering abortion doctors in the name of God? Does that mean because a few Christians do it that all Christians must be bad? Of course not.
If you judge an entire group of people by the zealots of the group, just about everyone looks evil. Everyone has their own version of how to believe and how not to believe. Just about everyone here could quote there favorite passage from the bible that they follow religiously. All the while they skip a passage here or there that maybe they don't think is interpretted the same way you might.
Exactally my feelings also. I have Muslim friends. And I get so pissed because they catch so much flack because of a few in their religion who take the Qu'ran and twist it to thier own benefit. How many christans over time have done the exact same thing with the Bible? I also get pissy when my friends tell me that I date terroists. I usually shut them up with one name. Timothy McVeigh. You dont have to be Muslim to be a terroist and you dont have to belive in Allah to be evil.
This was not suppose to be a thread about Islam? Then why is Muslims mentioned in the subject line?
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| Apr 16, 2006 @ 1:09 PM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution |
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tezra
Posts: 195
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"This was not suppose to be a thread about Islam? Then why is Muslims mentioned in the subject line?"
Probably because they usually seem to be synonymous terms. I don't care who you are. ANYONE who tried to bully, intimidate, harrass, demand, or even just plain bug me, got nothin' comin'. Don't care what color, sex, race, religion you are. Leave me alone and I will return the favor. Problem is, they still keep at me (in person in public in this area). The rudeness of those who APPEAR to be from the middle east or russia are constantly bullying Americans and telling us how awful America is, how much they hate us all yada yada. They get the same treatment as that white, bald, fat biker dude who tried to bully me on my own front porch. He left with his tail between his legs. Nope, NO special treatment for anybody.
Would also like to add that apparently the whole election process was a joke. (Wish I still had the link.) Do a search and see how the person elected is being received, and probably going to be forced to resign.
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| Apr 16, 2006 @ 1:57 PM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution
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Heaveninawildflower
Posts: 15,333
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those who APPEAR to be from the middle east or russia are constantly bullying Americans and telling us how awful America is, how much they hate us all yada yada.
Why is it that I never, ever run into people who do or say things like that? I can understand it at work, we're all professionals, but even in the 'ghetto' areas (and by that I mean the Russian or Middle Eastern neighborhoods) here in Phoenix or back in NYC, I've never encountered anything remotely resembling that kind of hatred. I have friends who are Russian immigrants, as well as Iranians and Pakistanis, all of whom are nothing less than overjoyed to be here and want to be part of this country. Granted, those back in their home countries may not be our biggest fans, but your post sounds like you're talking about people in your area. I'm really curious as to how and where you run into people saying things like that.
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| Apr 16, 2006 @ 2:42 PM |
Muslims don't even respect their own constitution |
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ravensday
Posts: 388
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The rudeness of those who APPEAR to be from the middle east or russia are constantly bullying Americans and telling us how awful America is, how much they hate us all yada yada.
How does someone appear to be from the Middle East or Russia? I appear to be a sex goddess, but I aint.
My Egyptian friends skin is as light as mine, my Algerians friend skin is no darker than my daughters (who is white) and my Pakistani friend is dark but I have yet to hear him berate me for being an American. Ohh and by the way he is more American than I am, and I am more Muslim than he is. He agrees. He only buys American made products, doesnt like the fact that I drive a Japanese car, he refuses to shop at Wal-Mart, and has been an American for the past 20 years. I know Iraqis, Algerians, Egyptians, Pakistanis who are all Muslim and they dont try to convert me or talk badly about America. They are grateful to be here. They work and pay thier taxes and leave others alone. I have had the wondeful pleasure to know these people and think my life better for the knowing!
Tezra. Maybe you should develop your own perfect Utopia and live there all by yourself and then would not be bullied by the other sane people around you.
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